FAO snydersnapshots

[3WE]

Hey, what twin turboprop did you fly?

The story reminds me of several J-31 rides I took a few years back- they ususally left the curtain open.

The comments about steam gauges, no autopilot were familiar. Not sure what the folks thought of the flight director, but I remember them messing with it.

[snydersnapshots]

Originally Posted by 3WE

Hey, what twin turboprop did you fly?

The story reminds me of several J-31 rides I took a few years back- they ususally left the curtain open.

The comments about steam gauges, no autopilot were familiar. Not sure what the folks thought of the flight director, but I remember them messing with it.

Guilty as charged! I have about 3,000 hours in the Jetstream 31 and 32 models, and another 1200 or so in Metroliners, mainly the Metro 3 and Metro 23 (a higher powered, higher gross weight Metro 3).

I flew the Jetstream for United Express up in Seattle--when I started I worked for NPA, a subsidiary of Westair. After two years Westair and NPA merged, and to years after that Mesa bought us.

We used to leave the door open all the time. If someone was interested (or if she was cute--one of the benefits of being 27 and single) we'd usually offer them a headset and let them listen in.

After United Express I went to work for Empire Airlines up in northern Idaho and flew the Metroliner out of both Coeur d'Alene, ID and Saint Paul, MN.

Where did you ride on the Jetstreams and what airline did they belong to? Looking back, I really enjoyed the flying in that airplane. I've seen pictures of several of my old "friends" in various stages of dismantlement as their parts are taken and used for operating Jetstreams.

[3WE]

Great reply!

My J-31 riding experience was from St. Louis, MO, first under TWA paint jobs (probably run by Trans States), and later under AA paint jobs, and eventually run by Corporate Airlines (later renamed to Regionsair).

Most of this was under that "essential air service" program where they would fly from smaller cities in a roughly 100-mile radius of STL. The free parking was nice and very conveinient. Connection times tended to suck 2 to 4 hour layovers, to where you could have driven, but then again, $ wise, you were ahead somewhat.

I have a few good stories. A few times, I watched the PNF tap the altimiter on climb out and then a brief, light feeling as we descended back to the assigned altitude we just flew through.

One night it was hard IMC (mabye 300 ft, moderate rain and fog). The ADF and "VOR/GS" was visible and the approach had an LOM. By the swing of the ADF and LOC, I could see that we were vectored to intercept a little bit INSIDE the marker.

I then freaked as we descended to 400 ft AGL with the gear up, and then went around. I then realized that the pilots probably decided early on that they were not landing on that approach, and left the gear up, and if they did happen to break out high enough, they could lower the gear and land...?? Pure speculation on my part, but.....

I was very impressed one day - we were flying North to STL....I notice 180 on the DG....Huh....a few min later 360. Damn, these guys are holding and I'm not even feeling the turns!

Twice I got to wear a head set (wow, glad to know I'm cute). Actually I got to tell them I had a private ticket- and then they played the CRM game that I could inform them if I saw something. One time they forgot to change center frequencies.

Of course, sometimes, they would keep row 1 empty, claiming W & B. I don't know because there were some crazy light loads where I was allowed in row 1...how do you get forward CG with a moderate load, and an aft CG with light or full load.

One time they lost a vortex generator tab off the top of the wing and the flight was delayed 4 hours while they fixed it. Another time a prop reverse sensor went out, the pilots were allowed to fly back empty (to STL) but not allowed to haul us.

Here's a good one, pull up a map of STL. One time, we landed on Runway 6 and turned off before runway 12R/30L. (Yes, heavy reverse and braking).

Sad, that all I can do is report on little mistakes, of course, that's easy to do from Seat 1B where I have no responsibilities. I really cannot fault the pilots- they all seemed competent.

Now, I HATED the aircraft. It yawed constantly! (These planes had the luggage pod underneath and one pilot told me that the wing had a lot of dihedral that also caused that yaw.) It was also good and noisy....I do recall an instance of ice slapping the fuselage. Another pilot mentioned that the J31 shared the landing gear of some fighter and that the J-31 was certified for carrier operations.

Corporate had a crash- a sad one, after a tough, 14-hour, hard-IMC day, the crew was on a VOR DME approach and the CVR said "airport in sight" (they may very well have seen it), but it was night and IMC, little civilization on the approach (i.e. lights) and no GPWS and there's that night-black-hole-effect and they did CFITrees about a mile short of the runway.

I think, I had the pilot on that flight on one of my flights . It was a guy named "Kim" and that's a slightly unique name for a guy.

Cape Airways is provding the service now in Piston Cessna 402s. But I have since moved to STL.

[snydersnapshots]

Originally Posted by 3WE

One night it was hard IMC (mabye 300 ft, moderate rain and fog). The ADF and "VOR/GS" was visible and the approach had an LOM. By the swing of the ADF and LOC, I could see that we were vectored to intercept a little bit INSIDE the marker.

I then freaked as we descended to 400 ft AGL with the gear up, and then went around. I then realized that the pilots probably decided early on that they were not landing on that approach, and left the gear up, and if they did happen to break out high enough, they could lower the gear and land...?? Pure speculation on my part, but.....

That might have been the case--if the flaps were extended to the landing position they should have gotten the gear warning horn. Of course, many pilots have landed gear up wondering what that $^%& noise was!

Originally Posted by 3WE

Of course, sometimes, they would keep row 1 empty, claiming W & B. I don't know because there were some crazy light loads where I was allowed in row 1...how do you get forward CG with a moderate load, and an aft CG with light or full load.

They might not have been BS'ing you, depending on the number of bags in the back. Another factor was the water-methanol tank in the back. As I recall, we carried 110 lbs of water-meth to augment the power during hot weather. Our J-31's had the tanks which were mounted aft of the pressure bulkhead. Our J-32's, on the other hand, had higher power engines and did NOT have the water meth. This lead to some issues of forward CG at times on those airplanes because of the lack of water and its associated hardware.

Originally Posted by 3WE

One time they lost a vortex generator tab off the top of the wing and the flight was delayed 4 hours while they fixed it. Another time a prop reverse sensor went out, the pilots were allowed to fly back empty (to STL) but not allowed to haul us.

They ended up getting a ferry permit. Truthfully, I would think they should have been able to defer the vortex generator through the Minimum Equipment List an press on with the revenue flight.

Originally Posted by 3WE

Here's a good one, pull up a map of STL. One time, we landed on Runway 6 and turned off before runway 12R/30L. (Yes, heavy reverse and braking).

WOW!

One fun thing we used to do going into Seattle: They had us fly downwind for runway 16 L or R over Puget Sound at 10,000 feet. Abeam the airport on clear days we'd report it in sight and often they would ask "Can you keep the turn inside Boeing Field (about 4.5 nm north of SEA)?" Of course we'd say yes. "You're cleared for the visual runway 16 R." Down comes the gear and flaps, power to idle, and hang it on the props. It came down quite nicely, though looking back on it, I'm sure the poor people back in rows 6 or 7 thought they were going to die since all they could see through the front windshield was dirt or water!

Originally Posted by 3WE

Now, I HATED the aircraft. It yawed constantly! (These planes had the luggage pod underneath and one pilot told me that the wing had a lot of dihedral that also caused that yaw.) It was also good and noisy....I do recall an instance of ice slapping the fuselage. Another pilot mentioned that the J31 shared the landing gear of some fighter and that the J-31 was certified for carrier operations.

It did tend to yaw, and operating it close to it's ceiling (25,000 feet) was like balancing on a beach ball. I did hear that the Jetstream was used as a carrier aircraft by the Royal Navy. And yes, I did test that carrier gear a few times...

Originally Posted by 3WE

Corporate had a crash- a sad one, after a tough, 14-hour, hard-IMC day, the crew was on a VOR DME approach and the CVR said "airport in sight" (they may very well have seen it), but it was night and IMC, little civilization on the approach (i.e. lights) and no GPWS and there's that night-black-hole-effect and they did CFIT trees about a mile short of the runway.

I think, I had the pilot on that flight on one of my flights . It was a guy named "Kim" and that's a slightly unique name for a guy.

I remember the accident, though I don't remember the exact details. We had one while I was flying the airplane--the day after my first Christmas with the company, as I recall. They were descending into Pasco, Washington and had ice on the tail. At the time, our procedure when landing was "Flaps 50, flows off" (turn the bleeds off in case we needed the power for a missed approach) at 200 feet. What the Canadian operators of the airplane realized but hadn't told their neighbors to the south, is that the Jetstream had a very nasty habit of the tail stalling when you go to flaps 50 with ice on it. Our crew moved the flaps and the airplane just nosed right over and hit the ground probably before they knew what hit 'em.

[3WE]

I also got the impression that the controls / control forces were very heavy...and they landed with the trim tab...essentially.

Thanks for the discussion.

[snydersnapshots]

Originally Posted by 3WE

I also got the impression that the controls / control forces were very heavy...and they landed with the trim tab...essentially.

Thanks for the discussion.

You are right, the control forces were relatively high and we would put a little nose-up trim in sometimes to help out.

[3WE]

Snyder- one other fun J31 memory hit me...

A couple of times when we were late, you could see 100% on the torque gauges and I think 100% on the props for the whole flight...on descent, the ASI touched 250 knots* and a yellow light came on and a warning beeped...the pilots looked at each other with a crap-eating grin.

(I'm assuming that's not a Vne, issue, but a warning for the normal 250 kt speed restriction for Class B airspace/TCA).

[snydersnapshots]

Originally Posted by 3WE

Snyder- one other fun J31 memory hit me...

A couple of times when we were late, you could see 100% on the torque gauges and I think 100% on the props for the whole flight...on descent, the ASI touched 250 knots* and a yellow light came on and a warning beeped...the pilots looked at each other with a crap-eating grin.

(I'm assuming that's not a Vne, issue, but a warning for the normal 250 kt speed restriction for Class B airspace/TCA).

I remember hearing the overspeed warning once or twice myself. As I recall, Vne was 223 knots. The Horizon guys flying Metroliners used to hate getting behind us, since their Vne was 246 (for some reason that number sticks in my mind...).

I was reminded of the fun of flying a turboprop this past week when I was jumpseating on a Horizon Q-400. We were about 10 miles out and on the north side of 210 knots when tower told us to slow...we had a 100 knot overtake on the traffic ahead. The pulled the power and flattened those babies (props) out and within about two or three miles we were back at around 135...

[snydersnapshots]

Going through some pictures the other day, I found some of the old girl (click on the thumbnail for a bigger view):




Here's another of the old girl...along with the "new" girl (who still puts up with me 22 years later!):



And here's a cockpit photo (Sadly, this is the airplane that was involved in the accident at Pasco, Washington, killing all aboard):