Air France plane missing?

[EconomyClass]

Originally Posted by SYDCBRWOD

Nup, I can't - don't know his quals (beyond perhaps a commercial pilots licence)
.

Gee, I guess no one here understands web searches. I kinda expected you'd do the one or two minute's work I did to look UP his qualifications.

Guess that would have gotten in the way of the kneejerk response. Glad that no one here has any influence over the improvement of safety in the air.

[CockpitCat]

No wreckage found on the ocean floor yet? Quite disturbing, given that wreckage found on the ocean surface should give some rough idea where on the ocean floor to search, given the sea currents etc. at the time of the crash...

[Highkeas]

Originally Posted by CockpitCat

No wreckage found on the ocean floor yet? Quite disturbing, given that wreckage found on the ocean surface should give some rough idea where on the ocean floor to search, given the sea currents etc. at the time of the crash...

I assume it takes time to decide how to conduct phase 3 of the search and then round up the needed equipment and personnel. The ocean is deep where the plane crashed and the ocean floor is reportedly very rough. Look how difficult it sometimes is to find other crashed aircraft even on land in rough terrain.
http://www.bea-fr.org/anglaise/actualite/actu.htm

[Purdue_AAE]

Originally Posted by CockpitCat

No wreckage found on the ocean floor yet? Quite disturbing, given that wreckage found on the ocean surface should give some rough idea where on the ocean floor to search, given the sea currents etc. at the time of the crash...

Not only is the ocean very deep, and very mountainous, in area where AF 447 went down, but the debris field may be significantly smaller than many anticipate. Submarines, for example, have a crush depth-an depth where the hull is crushed by the ever increasing water pressure.

Even if AF 447 was relatively intact once it reached the water surface, excess water pressure would crush any voids. These implosions would increase the density of debris, and increase its downward plunge to the ocean floor. Smaller, higher density debris, traveling at a high velocities could strike the ocean floor and be obscured by rocky terrain or slip through meters of slit and mud.

[TeeVee]

Originally Posted by Purdue_AAE

Not only is the ocean very deep, and very mountainous, in area where AF 447 went down, but the debris field may be significantly smaller than many anticipate. Submarines, for example, have a crush depth-an depth where the hull is crushed by the ever increasing water pressure.

Even if AF 447 was relatively intact once it reached the water surface, excess water pressure would crush any voids. These implosions would increase the density of debris, and increase its downward plunge to the ocean floor. Smaller, higher density debris, traveling at a high velocities could strike the ocean floor and be obscured by rocky terrain or slip through meters of slit and mud.

not buying this theory. the hull would not be crushed if it were not intact, as the pressure would be equalized. are you saying that the hull was intact after impact?

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by TeeVee

are you saying that the hull was intact after impact?

Impossible. Things (and bodies) from INSIDE the hull were found floating, so they had to go OUT the hull through some opening.

And an intact hull is not watertight either.

An even if it was, it has a "negative pressurization" relief valve that would let the external fluid (be it air or water) get into the hull as soon as the outer pressure exceeds the inner pressure by a given amount that the hull can withstand with margin.

[Purdue_AAE]

The use of the term "hull" was not meant to imply that the aircraft was intact after impacting with the water's surface. I believe that in a previous post that I made I did mention that while the impact was relatively low speed, that the aircraft (i) was relatively intact on impact and (ii) that it broke about upon impact. Evidentiary recovered debris, including a galley and bulkhead with jump seats, are demonstratives of a low forward velocity, higher sink rate impact. These pieces of debris would not be recovered, if the fuselage remained intact after impact.

To provide additional clarification, it is quite conceivable that relatively large fuselage sections remained relatively intact, as if fuselage "shattered" on impact, I would have expected recovery of additional bulkhead pieces, galleys, overhead storage bins and bodies.

These larger pieces of fuselage and wing sections would contain numerous air pockets, for example, pockets formed in insulation materials, seat foams, etc. As the larger pieces descended toward the seabed, the depth's overpressure would cause implosions, some which could cause the additional fracturing of large pieces of wreckage, hence, inhibiting the searchers' ability to readily identify the wreckage from other debris on the seabed.

[Deadstick]

Purdue I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. Well thought out and clearly presented.

[TeeVee]

Gabe, I'm glad you concur.

Purdue, thank you for clarifying. I know that you know boatloads more about all of this than I do...

[johnkos123]

Well..it's going to be a long long time till any conclusive evidence is found ..if any.I'll be looking forward to this as well as the edition of Air Crash investigation for this flight.

[jmtejada]

I'm new posting here, but I have been following closely the events of Flight 447 on the web and on this forum since day 1. As someone that has studied many previous air tragedies as well as being a frequent flyer, I must admit that I am deeply disturbed by this air disaster, much more so than others in the past. THe reason being: I believed in the fallacy that weather could not cause an aircraft at cruising altitude to crash. I thought that technology and advancements in the understanding of thunderstorms had removed the possiblity of this occuring. Obviously, it was very naive of me to think that.

So now that my security blanket has been taken away, I await, with great anticipation, the retrieval of the black boxes, so that mystery cause of Flight 447 can finally be revealed.

[Highkeas]

Originally Posted by jmtejada

.......................I must admit that I am deeply disturbed by this air disaster, much more so than others in the past. THe reason being: I believed in the fallacy that weather could not cause an aircraft at cruising altitude to crash. I thought that technology and advancements in the understanding of thunderstorms had removed the possiblity of this occuring. Obviously, it was very naive of me to think that.

So now that my security blanket has been taken away, I await, with great anticipation, the retrieval of the black boxes, so that mystery cause of Flight 447 can finally be revealed.

I wouldn't let this crash worry you - the primary cause has not yet been determined and it may turn out to be not weather related. This crash was a rare event - aircraft have been flying this route for years without crashing. I would fly this route (or any other) anytime on an Airbus 330.

It is possible the FDR will never be found, an educated guess of the cause will be made, and the aircraft systems upgraded.

I have worked on several flight failures where the cause was unkown so several things were upgraded in the hope that whatever caused the failure was fixed.

[Highkeas]

Originally Posted by Purdue_AAE

...................Evidentiary recovered debris, including a galley and bulkhead with jump seats, are demonstratives of a low forward velocity, higher sink rate impact. .................

The debris does not tell us anything about velocity (although the vertical velocity could be estimated). What is known that there was high vertical deceleration and minimal horizontal deceleration relative to those levels used during the design process (it has been a long time since I worked in this area but I recall using 9 g ultimate for foreward crash loads and 6 g ultimate for vertical crash loads).
Calculating the g loads experienced when a flight vehicle impacts the ocean has always been a tricky analysis because of wave condition and vehicle impact attitudes.

[Highkeas]

from their website http://www.bea-fr.org/anglaise/actualite/actu.htm

Press release 5 October 2009
Flight AF 447 on 1^st June 2009
A 330 – 200, registered F-GZCP

Last weekend the press featured some statements on the accident that occurred on 1st June 2009 to flight AF 447. The BEA would like to remind you that the evidence available is currently being studied by the top French specialists, assisted by those from abroad. The investigation is progressing, but it is a particularly difficult one and it is too early to be able to describe the circumstances of the accident or, still less, attempt to explain them. Once again, we can only recommend the greatest caution. As has already been announced, the BEA is planning to publish a further interim report before the end of the year. In parallel to this, information on the third phase of the search for the airplane wreckage will be released as soon as investigators have completed the preparations for these operations.

[LH-B744]

Like the old lady on the RV Keldysh said "Thank you for the precise forensic analysis, Mr. Bodine."

Unprejudiced, good style, Highk, I wanna thank you for that.

[Optimus Prime]

Originally Posted by Deadstick

Purdue I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. Well thought out and clearly presented.

Brad... you and I have never had a chat exchange on www.internet.com. Given the apparent level of knowledge of aviation concepts you possess I must ask did you attend Cal Poly S.L.O.?

[EconomyClass]

Y'all read this one? Kinda scary.

At 1.30am on October 29 the pilot of the Jetstar Airbus 330-200 reported an instrument blackout as the jet carrying 200 passengers passed through storm clouds midway between Japan and the Gold Coast, the Herald Sun reports.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html

[Spectator]

This article re the Qantas attempted wheels up landing also notes the Jetstar incident as being investigated in relation to AF447

http://www.news24.com/Content/World/...o_lower_wheels

[Highkeas]

According to this weeks Aviation Week the BEA is nearing release of an updated report on the AF447 accident.

[Leightman]

No update yet. Don't know if the following has been put up here. Ref second animation file at:

http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flig...conditions.pdf

Quote:
"The preliminary analysis of Meteosat imagery shows the existence of a
powerful cluster in the vicinity of the planned aircraft trajectory. Around 2h
UTC this cluster had started to decrease in intensity."

"This analysis of infrared imagery does not allow to conclude to the
exceptional nature of this cluster or to the exceptional intensity of
convective activity that prevailed in the ITCZ area"

Too bad there is no overlay of the flight path.

The ocean is big but I am surprised that no more debris has been found.