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  • Originally posted by phoneman View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the vertical stabilizer blew off!!
    Indeed

    These airplanes are built like composite cracker boxes. I think this investigation if done propoerly will expose the real problems with these airframe.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by IntheShade View Post
      Indeed

      These airplanes are built like composite cracker boxes. I think this investigation if done propoerly will expose the real problems with these airframe.
      How about you back up that statement by please show us your engineering degrees.

      And the ones from the back of chewing gum packages do not count.

      Comment


      • Curious trivia...


        1. One of the passengers was a prince, the 4th in the line of sucession in the Brazilian monarchy.

        2. A small company from Limoges (Fr) sent its best four employees and their wives in a trip to Brazil... All were returning home from the "prize" trip in AF447. Orphans left behind and the company loses its top talents...
        Abçs.
        g.
        www.transconsult.com.br

        Comment


        • Originally posted by B757300 View Post
          How about you back up that statement by please show us your engineering degrees.

          And the ones from the back of chewing gum packages do not count.
          University of Texas

          B.S. AeroSpace Engineering


          This can be confirmed through several people on this website.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            When was the last time you've heard one of those was downed by a lighting strike? I have never heard of one.
            Maybe not exactly related to this one, but maybe of interest for you. Quite a while ago there was one case in Germany in February 1988. A SA-227 Metro III was approaching Düsseldorf Airport a few minutes before sunrise in severe weather conditions made up from snow, hail, thunderstorm with a low ceiling.

            The accident report says that the aircraft was struck by lightning when entering a thunderstrom cell during approach at about 3000ft. This lead to a complete black out, leaving the crew with absolutely no indication of the aircraft attitude because they simply had no source of light.

            The aircraft went into a 45°-dive at approx. 4000ft/min and the crew was able to recover at an altitude above ground of roughly 50-100ft. The report assumes that this recovery from a high speed at low altitude (aircraft left clouds at ca. 1000ft i.e. crew regained visibility) caused a first structural damage. They managed to have control for only a short period as they immediately entered another storm cell and continued an uncontrolled flight with several alternating nose up/down attitude as well as erratic turns.

            The aircraft was put beyond design limits and started to disintegrate. The right-side flap fell of first followed by the right wing and then it basically disintegrated completely in flight.

            The investigators concluded that:
            1) being struck by lightning wrecked the complete electronic system;
            2) due to the darkness the crew was left with no orientation and the aircraft went into an uncontrolled flight;
            3) the recovery process: a) damaged the aircraft's structure; b) lead the aircraft back into the storm cell again leaving the crew without orientation.

            They also noted that the crew might have been physically or psychologically unable to react immediately after the lightning struck. Due to the emergency situation a lack of experience or unpreparedness of the crew may have been a contributing factor (as it is possible that they were not able to grab the flashlights in the back of their seats to make the ADI visible).

            So, it was not the lightning alone, but it was ruled the major factor in this one.

            Accident report (unfortunately only in German, but with a few low res photos and the available FDR data until the point when it was struck by lightning):

            Comment


            • Every life is important. To me, they died the same fate quite sadly.

              Originally posted by FrequentFlyer View Post

              1. One of the passengers was a prince, the 4th in the line of sucession in the Brazilian monarchy.

              2. A small company from Limoges (Fr) sent its best four employees and their wives in a trip to Brazil... All were returning home from the "prize" trip in AF447. Orphans left behind and the company loses its top talents...

              Comment


              • Prayers to the passengers and families of AF447

                This is a horrible accident. However, I'm convinced we will eventually get to the bottom of this.

                Very few airline accidents happen without an explanation. The tough situation here, obviously, is how to find the CVR. The crash site is in the middle of the Atlantic and is very deep. It could take years before it is found, if ever.

                All we can do is wait to see if more evidence of the plane is found.

                Can we safely assume that since there was no pan-pan or may day transmission that the cockpit crew were incapicitated from sudden cabin decompression?

                It just seems odd that there was absolutely no emergency transmission - maybe total electrical/communcations failure?

                Godspeed to the passengers, families, and Air France.

                Comment


                • Boac 911

                  I recall this accident where severe turbulence tore a section of wing off a 707 flying just SE of MT Fuji Japan redering the aircraft uncontrolable.
                  Turbulence can bring large commercial aircrft down.
                  Last edited by canair67; 2009-06-03, 00:57. Reason: Link was ineffective
                  Who's on first?..........

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by canair67 View Post
                    i recall this accident where severe turbulence tore a section of wing off a 707 flying just se of mt fuji japan redering the aircraft uncontrolable.
                    Turbulence can bring large commercial aircrft down.
                    British Overseas Airways 911

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bxlang View Post


                      Can we safely assume that since there was no pan-pan or may day transmission that the cockpit crew were incapicitated from sudden cabin decompression?

                      It just seems odd that there was absolutely no emergency transmission - maybe total electrical/communcations failure?

                      Godspeed to the passengers, families, and Air France.
                      yes, it will be interesting to see what, if any, evidence the scattered parts of debris provides.

                      the crew could have been incapacitated, or, they could have just been too preoccupied with attempting to regain control of the aircraft that they simply did not have the time or opportunity to relay any kind of emergency declaration.

                      it is so sad to think of these unfortunate souls who thought they were on just another routine flight. so many lives lost, so many bright futures, so many unwritten stories, gone forever.

                      Comment


                      • I am tending to think the aircraft was largely intact on impact with the water. A 3 mile debris field after 24 hours in the ocean would seem pretty small.

                        So perhaps a highspeed low angle impact with the aircraft breaking up making a smaller field perhaps 1/2 mile long, and the ocean has spread it over the 24 hour period.

                        The GOL 737 stay intact to about 8000ft before breaking up and its field was fairly large. Though the have never found the severed wing section.

                        I think terrorism should not be ruled out in general, but someone claiming resposibility surely would have done so by now. Definately the main groups would have made a song and dance.

                        Comment


                        • I know of a B-52 that lost most of its rudder and vertical stabilizer in heavy turbulence and still managed to land safely. It depends on the aircraft design and what fails, etc...


                          Even with No Tail, B-52 'Finest I Ever Flew,' Says Pilot



                          Video of the B-52 landing with virtually no vertical stabilizer.
                          In 1964, a Boeing B-52 bomber on loan from the Air Force back to Boeing for flight test encountered heavy sheer turburlance which broke the entire verticle a...



                          I know of a F-15 that lost most of its wing in a midair; yet it returned safely.

                          F-15 No Wing And A Prayer (Clipped Wing) (No Wing)
                          The F-15 flies with wing broke off. After a midair (not shown) with an A-4 .Most of the motion shots have been reenacted, but the story and the stills in my ...




                          Sometimes aircraft can make it back when you don't think it's possible; it helps to have an experienced, skilled pilot at the controls.

                          Originally posted by Bxlang View Post
                          Can we safely assume that since there was no pan-pan or may day transmission that the cockpit crew were incapicitated from sudden cabin decompression?
                          I think that's a definite possibility; but at this time I would have a tendency to think it is not as likely as a catastrophic electrical failure. I suspect it was something like a lightning strike that suddenly disabled most of the electrical systems. Another possibility that would fit your scenario is it had a structural failure that was so bad that a compromised the electrical system. Decompression alone at the altitude that most airliners fly, I would think that most pilots would be able to don their oxygen masks and activated before they lost consciousness, and I think within a matter of seconds they would issue a distress.

                          Comment




                          • France is leading the investigation.

                            How is it determined which agency leads the investigation? I thought it depends on where the accident takes place; isn't the debris in Brazilian waters? Why isn't CENIPA leading?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ToRX View Post
                              Accident report (unfortunately only in German, but with a few low res photos and the available FDR data until the point when it was struck by lightning):
                              http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_016/nn_223...88_1X001-0.pdf
                              While the BFU has English versions of its publications, it hasn't translated any reports from the 1980s. You can see the BFU's English reports here: http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_015/nn_226...tml?__nnn=true

                              Why not send a letter to the BFU and ask it to translate its older accident reports?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ToRX View Post
                                Maybe not exactly related to this one, but maybe of interest for you. Quite a while ago there was one case in Germany in February 1988. A SA-227 Metro III [...]
                                [sarcasm]And was the extensive use of composite materials a factor in the damage caused by the lighting?[/sarcasm]

                                I know that a few planes crashed with a lighting strike being a causal factor. As far as I know, none of them used composites extensively.

                                My response was not about a lighting not being involved, but a serious reservation about a composites / lighting strike interaction being involved.

                                As I've said, thousands of mainly composite business jets take off every day, and there must have been thousands of strikes by now. The fact that none of those planes AFAIK was ever downed by a lighting strike up to now is a solid evidence that the extensive use of composites isn't a significant increase in the risk associated with lighting strikes, compared with mainly aluminium planes.

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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