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  • Is THIS an aviation safety issue? (Another good landing)...

    ...along with weak reporting and even ass-hat, unsubstantiated, speculative comments from someone identified as a pilot.

    http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2016/09 ... -vstop.cnn

    I had hoped the touchdow...I mean slamdown would have been part of the video.

    I blame the pilots being rushed by the breakdown of an outdated reservation system.

    Or perhaps the pilots were less vigilant, knowing that they were just hauling inanimate materials as opposed to fare-paying souls with families?

    Or perhaps the pilots erred too much on the side of not_pulling up relentlessly?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  • #2
    F.A.O.: Boeing Bobby...

    ...it would appear that unlike you, we have a differing set of feelings for plane loads of boxes versus plane loads of people.

    I don't think anyone nor anybox did died in this crash, although some pins, struts, tires and engines did died.

    Still the question of why some well trained, fairly experienced guys would violate procedure and land with an excessively negative vertical speed seems like one we should be interested in...but I guess we are not_interested.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      F.A.O.: Boeing Bobby...

      ...it would appear that unlike you, we have a differing set of feelings for plane loads of boxes versus plane loads of people.

      I don't think anyone nor anybox did died in this crash, although some pins, struts, tires and engines did died.

      Still the question of why some well trained, fairly experienced guys would violate procedure and land with an excessively negative vertical speed seems like one we should be interested in...but I guess we are not_interested.
      I am not sure I get your point here at all?????

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        Still the question of why some well trained, fairly experienced guys would violate procedure and land with an excessively negative vertical speed...
        Steep approach due to terrain, no ILS (NDB), 5100 MSL, low cloud cover, shortish runway, getthereitis, cargo cowboys in Indonesia.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          I am not sure I get your point here at all?????
          Here's the points I'm trying to make:

          1) Joking around & drawing parallels.

          2) Poking fun at the forum membership (not you) for not caring that someone crashed a cargo plane (since we don't care about boxes)

          3) You made a big deal (albeit an appropriate big deal) how it doesn't matter if you have boxes in the back, you fly to the epitome of safety and professionalism...

          A. Us forum members should find this crash of some discussion-worthy value since it involves a botched landing of a transport-category airplane (not unlike Asiana at LA nor the Emirates 777...running a perfectly good airplane into the ground in weather that isn't that extreme.

          B. However, this thread sits for a couple of days with no input from Evan nor you except that I'm dragging you into it.

          C. Your comments that you fly the same with boxes or people, provided an excellent foundation and contrast for how "we outsiders" look at crashes...just boxes?, who cares.

          4. I know I'm marginally bipolar and blend humor and seriousness (and am not always clear) on these threads, but please see #1 and enjoy. Thanks.

          Originally posted by Evan (Paraphrased)
          A brief summary bashing third-world aviation as being all around sloppy, low tech and weaker safety culture
          Those are valid considerations.

          Still, these guys have way more training and hours than a 200-hour commercial pilot who is fully licensed to the much more challenging job of flying piston planes in ice hauling bank checks to small airports at night (yeah, that's a tad historical, but still) ...there's a shred of gray area and worth studying why these guys landed so darn hard in seemingly OK weather.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 3we
            still) ...there's a shred of gray area and worth studying why these guys landed so darn hard in seemingly OK weather.
            You've got a fairly short runway surrounded by mountains. So you have to make a steep final and then arrest that sink rate without floating 1000' down the runway. There is a quote from a pilot on the vid (not necessarilly THE pilot) telling us that this happens all too often. I don't think it has to be weather related (since you have non-precision MDA) but The field is known for its low cloud cover. This is real cowboy country and there's probably a lot of bent airplanes lying around.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              ...There is a quote from a pilot on the vid (not necessarilly THE pilot) telling us that this happens all too often...and there's probably a lot of bent airplanes lying around...
              I'm not sure how much to trust his expert testimony. If it happens "all too often", I'd think there'd be some stats and a few more news reports on said bent airplanes.

              They do cost a few bucks to go crashing them like that and then they take up some significant storage space, so I question whether transport aircraft are, in fact, regularly getting their gear ripped off at this place.

              Even our expert pilot makes his statement with no examples to back up his claim...when was the last time they smashed a set of gear or tires at this place? Last week? month? year? I know I'm asking a lot for the media (and eyewitnesses) to provide supporting data, but still...

              By the way, I thought there were stabilized approach criteria and safety buffers that allow a lot of other aircraft to make perfect landings as opposed to good and excellent landings.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                ..running a perfectly good airplane into the ground in weather that isn't that extreme....
                ... why these guys landed so darn hard in seemingly OK weather.
                Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

                A ground observer reported, the cloud base was about 150-200 feet, the aerodrome features no instrument approaches and thus is strictly visual approach only.

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  ...along with weak reporting and even ass-hat, unsubstantiated, speculative comments from someone identified as a pilot.

                  http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2016/09 ... -vstop.cnn

                  I had hoped the touchdow...I mean slamdown would have been part of the video.

                  I blame the pilots being rushed by the breakdown of an outdated reservation system.

                  Or perhaps the pilots were less vigilant, knowing that they were just hauling inanimate materials as opposed to fare-paying souls with families?

                  Or perhaps the pilots erred too much on the side of not_pulling up relentlessly?
                  Well. 2 criteria. Is this an evaluated link? Yes I think so. And is the person who has found the link a good one? Yes I think so.
                  So I clicked the link. 47 seconds. Embarrassing things sometimes happen quite quick.

                  I have another good link, which leads us to some quite good facts:
                  German source, but in English, for international use.
                  a/c type: B733F
                  airport: WAVV Wamena Airport, 1 rwy, 15/33 (6,398 feet/1950 meter long) @ 6,200 AMSL .

                  To answer 3WE's question... If an aircraft shows up on that German source, it definitely concerns aviation safety, yes.

                  Quite a high alt for such a short strip...
                  'Simultaneously the nose was pushed down in an attempt a landing within the first 3rd of the runway.'

                  I like to shake my head again...

                  PS: There are a/c types which I'd use for an attempt of a violent 'last minute' landing, in a simulator, e.g. a Baron 58, ONLY if I am the only living thing on board.
                  But I'd not use a B733F jet during a cloudy landing on a short strip in high alt for an attempt of a violent landing:
                  i.e. push the yoke with gear fully lowered, hard flare, hard touch down, hard brake /w rev beyond the limits?

                  Were two pilots in the B733F cockpit? And they haven't shared the opinion to protect each others lifes, preflight?
                  Last edited by LH-B744; 2016-09-18, 02:59. Reason: a/c type
                  The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                  The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                  And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                  This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Two pilots in the cockpit, nobody knows.

                    The German source says, two pilots plus 1 technician = 3 souls on board, all survived.

                    And our friends from the bigger river say that the B733F came to rest in full ownership of its nose gear.
                    I.e. the main gear collapsed because of - not a hard landing, that's everday business -
                    something/somebody let the B733F fall out of the sky with an evil descent rate.

                    What would happen if I threw a melon out of a 744 cockpit? I assume a similar descent rate, with a similar result for the B733F main gear.

                    Where the heck do those people learn to fly?!
                    The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                    The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                    And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                    This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                      What would happen if I threw a melon out of a 744 cockpit?
                      You'd probably be busted for violating procedure.

                      Before-landing checklist item 12: "Make sure all melons are properly secured".

                      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                      Eric Law

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        cloud base was about 150-200 feet, the aerodrome features no instrument approaches and thus is strictly visual approach only.
                        So it would seem that they busted minimums. Yeehaa.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          http://avherald.com/h?article=49deae9a&opt=0 A ground observer reported, the cloud base was about 150-200 feet, the aerodrome features no instrument approaches and thus is strictly visual approach only.
                          Ok, classical ass-hat mistake on me; HOWEVER the weather in the video of the dude sliding along didn't look much like the hard IMC you describe...I recall overcast, but it looked high.

                          And yes, it's good thing that celling measurements are not determined by parlour talkers halfway across the world looking at youtubes of airplanes on a runway...I recognize that's not necessarily accurate.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by elaw View Post
                            You'd probably be busted for violating procedure.

                            Before-landing checklist item 12: "Make sure all melons are properly secured".

                            I thought 12 was fragile glassware and that 13 was fruits and vegetables...

                            ...but I've been known to be wrong.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                              Where the heck do those people learn to fly?!
                              In their den on MSFS just like you!

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