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Every six months all part 121 pilots go for a simulator check. This includes a 3 or 4 day ground school where systems are covered in detail, plus all of the regulatory crap. i.e. TSA, hazmat training, CRM, TEM. This is followed by a 2 day simulator session. First day in called a PC warm up and the second day is the PC, which is basically a type rating oral and check ride. This is followed by an RFT ride 6 months later. Not sure how much more training they can do or have time for and still have the pilots be productive. Humans are still going to fuck up from time to time, it is just a design flaw.
I heard something like this a few years back...it changed my thinking a tad...maybe "we" dont know what pilots should be doing as much as "we" think "we" do (not that I don't enjoy stirring crap and calling out Evan for his disdain of fundamentals.)
ATL crew is indeed Evan-like in his procedural knowledge...but then again, there's his hard, practical side from actually doing it for beer money.
Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
Not sure if is correct or not, but Evan stated that the PIC was a Quantas pilot. If that is the case, he has one. And on a different note, yes in the recurrent ground school they go over just the basics. I don't know how it was where you are now, but at Atlas the basic indoc class is 7 weeks long and goes pretty deep into systems. Yes it requires the student to do a lot of self study to get it all but the original type oral is about 4 hours and is pretty heavy on systems.
I didn't state it. It is a rumour and might not be true at all. What I do know is that Emirates has been recruiting Qantas pilots, particularly those on temporary leave without pay due to surplus (the article linked below tells us "About 200 out of the 2200 Qantas pilots are on leave without pay, many of them flying with Jetstar and Emirates.") And of course we know none of those pilots had B777 type-ratings from Qantas. I expect Emirates to have a high standard for re-training them, but that might be a naive assumption. And, as ATLcrew attests, the depth of knowledge imparted through training may not be so deep and certain pilots might have no interest in digging further....
Depending on what this (alleged) pilot was previously flying, he might have had a different expectation for the TO/GA switches. However I think the 744 has a similar TO/GA switch restriction on the ground. BoeingBobby, is there a difference btw 744 and 777 on TO/GA switch activation above 50kts/below 400ft? Maybe the 744 has a delay before they deactivate?
I didn't state it. It is a rumour and might not be true at all. What I do know is that Emirates has been recruiting Qantas pilots, particularly those on temporary leave without pay due to surplus (the article linked below tells us "About 200 out of the 2200 Qantas pilots are on leave without pay, many of them flying with Jetstar and Emirates.") And or course we know none of those pilots had B777 type-ratings from Qantas. I expect Emirates to have a high standard for re-training them, but that might be a naive assumption. And, as ATLcrew attests, the depth of knowledge imparted through training may not be so deep and certain pilots might have no interest in digging further....
Depending on what this (alleged) pilot was previously flying, he might have had a different expectation for the TO/GA switches. However I think the 744 has a similar TO/GA switch restriction on the ground. BoeingBobby, is there a difference btw 744 and 777 on TO/GA switch activation above 50kts/below 400ft? Maybe the 744 has a delay before they deactivate?
Well it is the point if your point is that piloting a 777 requires more than basic airmanship. Certainly he should have had a hand on the thrust levers during approach and go around, that's not the issue we are discussing. We are discussing how piloting has changed over the years to be both an airmanship job and a systems administration job—and that it requires expert knowledge in both. The automation didn't fail here. The pilot failed to understand it (apparently).
From an airmanship, systems knowledge and CRM perspective, this is what SEEMS to have gone wrong:
- PF failure to have a hand on the thrust levers; and to advance them manually when they didn't respond
- PF failure to understand the limitations of the automation
- PM failure to monitor N1 to verify TO/GA thrust (or lack thereof)
- PF or PM premature gear retraction or mistaken gear retraction
#2 on that list is an all too common factor these days. And it leads to pilot error in basic airmanship because "what's it doing now" is a natural human factor that distracts concentration even from otherwise very seasoned pilots. It shouldn't, and you can make that point all you want, but it does.
Well. It took me quite an endless time to find out where I've actually seen something like a (illuminated?!) toga knob. Indeed not in a B744. One result of my research could be,
it is enough if you know 'your' cockpit, in 'your' a/c type, e.g. 744.
It doesn't have to be 'Gabriel's toga switch'. There are big differences even within 1 a/c family (742, 748, ...).
Even when I saw 'my toga switch' for the first time, I wondered if the pilot on the F/O seat had to be kindly asked to activate it. Imho a much shorter work around, for both pilot seats, is (in case of a 747) to grab these four big controllers in the middle.
PS: Evan, you are here long enough to stay cautious with your words in such a topic. It seems ... There is another question for me, since 'the 747 toga knob' is answered.
You say, in the 1st sentence that I've quoted, that a 773ER needs special treatment. Probably even if you know how to fly a 763ER. Afaik a triple7 is quite a longish thing.
744 length: not much more than 231 ft (70.6 metres)
773ER length: clearly more than 242 ft (73.9 metres, for Europeans).
77 79: I don't wanna talk about that, yet.
I have an assumption. The longer the a/c the more critical is a sudden g/a moment, after at least 1 tyre (tire they say beyond the pond) touched the rwy.
Have they only tried to avoid a tailstrike in that 773ER, which resulted in a reduced AoA?
Last edited by LH-B744; 2016-08-25, 00:47.
Reason: Cautious words.
The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
Even when I saw 'my toga switch' for the first time, I wondered if the pilot on the F/O seat had to be kindly asked to activate it.
I wouldn't be too concerned. If necessary for the particular model, I'm sure reach-around technique is covered in training, and after some practice would become almost second nature.
I wouldn't be too concerned. If necessary for the particular model, I'm sure reach-around technique is covered in training, and after some practice would become almost second nature.
Yes. And the funny thing is, one small cute European airline once operated the 742 until 2004, so that surely more than two pilots survive who could utter one or two really profound words about that issue.
We could bet, I'd say if something suddenly happens, they grabbed and grab the four big things in the middle. Would you dare to think about where the appropriate knob is?! I don't think so. You are here long enough.
If even the inventor of the a/c family is on TV, there must be one or two professional pilots on the planet...
But I haven't read one here at Jetphotos. Or have I.
I like to come back to the 773ER just for a moment. For the 744, I almost exactly know who flies her in Europe and how many a/c still exist in which European airlines.
The 773ER is rather a research object for me.
Our neighbours in Amsterdam operate 12, and another 2 to be delivered (!).
So, I hand over to the EHAM control tower. Could you imagine difficulties during sudden g/a for a/c which are longer than 71 metres due to the rather flat shaped 773ER (and 77 79) underbelly?
Imho for 'our' 744 that never has been an issue, right? (Avoided) tailstrike is a rare, almost unknown 744 issue, imho.
Last edited by LH-B744; 2016-08-25, 01:58.
Reason: 742 pilots anywhere?
The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
Let me be honest. There is only 1 true reason why I am engaged in this topic.
The 773ER is not only operated on the Dubai 12L runway...................................................... !!
Hm. For today they changed from 773ER to Airbus, but not everywhere (EK 044) ...
Eagle eye is watching you.
Last edited by LH-B744; 2016-08-25, 02:33.
Reason: They changed the a/c type.
The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
Double what? Funny I did two landings today, one HKG to ICN and one in ANC. I didn't shiver on either one! Oh maybe because it was in a 747-8!
Hm. LOL. You did not shiver when your aircraft kindly asked you to 'lower the feet'?
[Some very perfect pilots do not wait until the a/c screams. But then, how do you know that your 747 is 100% healthy? ...]
Imho, the 748 is not that far away from 'my' type.
And the 744 indeed kindly asks you to lower the gear in the right moment!
But, what bothers me more. Nobody, since my #25 entry here, tried to answer the question:
clearly more than 78,000,000 pax in one year with only 2 runways. Can they manage it down there at OMDB, or not?!
I know 1 European intercontinental airport that manages 75,000,000 pax in 1 year with 2 rwys. But the question for both stays the same.
OMDB or EGLL, crowded beyond legal limits?
[I'm not able to answer that question. LH does not operate the 747 in Dubai.]
Beyond the pond I sometimes find one or two BA-jets.
Are BA-B744 used to 75 million pax on only 2 runways? It quite seems like that. It's their home airport. They don't sound healthy with less than 70 million pax.
50 million with 4 runways, 13 million per 1 rwy, that's what he knows from home,
and that seems reasonable for me (e.g. SF bay, the best 744 destination ever).
[22,477 million in 2015. We are and stay #3 in Germany, and proud to relieve the #1. ... somebody should correct the en.wiki]
One insider: Does the #4 in Germany (they know that they are mentioned) still want a Middle East airline, younger than me, who has to be observed by Eagle Eye?
The Top#3 is alot of work, and today I don't see 1 airport in the very near East in Germany which is able to compete with a 35 million pax region (together with our nearest southern international neighbour, the ---K airport... ).
/slash quit local stories.
['on board a westbound 747'.... doesn't this forum own a singin smiley?]
PS: Has the 747 really become to small for Chek Lap Kok? Ich sollte bei bevorzugten Zielen wirklich mal die Schnauze halten. The doubledecker Airbus takes over 2 of my top#3 destinations, at least during the summer schedule ... And the official counter is also on my side: 14 airbuses against... alot of 747.
Last edited by LH-B744; 2016-08-25, 05:33.
Reason: Some local fights are not even worth to be mentioned!
The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
I am starting to think that the two-slit experiment with delayed choice quantum eraser is not so difficult to understand after all.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
Hm. Mostly, the F/Os obey if the captains (rather old people) scream the
HALT
order.
Although it sounds a bit vulgar if you say it. Are we sure that we still talk about a 773ER?
Apparently, today there is not a single Jetphotos member, who compared the ground clearance of a 747 gear with other jets. And today, I 'telephone' alot across the pond.
B773ER airplane description, published by the manufacturer.
2.3.2
the minimum 'M' clearance -- 7,79 m (for Europeans) -- measured at the aft end of the jet. First of all, that seems to be enough. But what is left after -- an estimated 10 degree nose up behaviour?
--- Cautious words. I'd assume that a 773ER can't be flown like a 747.
Evan mentioned it. After all, we only have assumptions until somebody has evaluated the FDR. The circumstances?
Hot (some sources say +48°C), but not beyond the limits? That was not the only jet that arrived down there on a hot day, I assume.
The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
Well. It took me quite an endless time to find out where I've actually seen something like a (illuminated?!) toga knob. Indeed not in a B744. One result of my research could be,
it is enough if you know 'your' cockpit, in 'your' a/c type, e.g. 744.
It doesn't have to be 'Gabriel's toga switch'. There are big differences even within 1 a/c family (742, 748, ...).
Even when I saw 'my toga switch' for the first time, I wondered if the pilot on the F/O seat had to be kindly asked to activate it. Imho a much shorter work around, for both pilot seats, is (in case of a 747) to grab these four big controllers in the middle.
PS: Evan, you are here long enough to stay cautious with your words in such a topic. It seems ... There is another question for me, since 'the 747 toga knob' is answered.
You say, in the 1st sentence that I've quoted, that a 773ER needs special treatment. Probably even if you know how to fly a 763ER. Afaik a triple7 is quite a longish thing.
744 length: not much more than 231 ft (70.6 metres)
773ER length: clearly more than 242 ft (73.9 metres, for Europeans).
77 79: I don't wanna talk about that, yet.
I have an assumption. The longer the a/c the more critical is a sudden g/a moment, after at least 1 tyre (tire they say beyond the pond) touched the rwy.
Have they only tried to avoid a tailstrike in that 773ER, which resulted in a reduced AoA?
Not sure if I should really bother but what the hell, That is NOT the TOGA switch! That is just an indicator light that shows that TOGA is armed. And that is a panel from a very old 100. See the light on the other side showing the speed brakes armed? The TOGA switches are still on the thrust levers.
Airplane tell you to put the gear down? Well maybe in your toy simulator it does. But unless you select flaps above 20 without the gear down nothing from the real airplane.
The 747-8 is 8' 4" LONGER than the 777-300 ER. We DO rotate at a slower initial rate than in the 400.
Take a look at the cargo ops side of Hong Kong oh I'm sorry (Chek Lap Kok) on Google maps. There are a lot more 74's in and out of VHHH (see I can be a geek too) than any A380's etc.
Yes. And the funny thing is, one small cute European airline once operated the 742 until 2004, so that surely more than two pilots survive who could utter one or two really profound words about that issue.
We could bet, I'd say if something suddenly happens, they grabbed and grab the four big things in the middle. Would you dare to think about where the appropriate knob is?! I don't think so. You are here long enough.
If even the inventor of the a/c family is on TV, there must be one or two professional pilots on the planet...
But I haven't read one here at Jetphotos. Or have I.
I like to come back to the 773ER just for a moment. For the 744, I almost exactly know who flies her in Europe and how many a/c still exist in which European airlines.
The 773ER is rather a research object for me.
Our neighbours in Amsterdam operate 12, and another 2 to be delivered (!).
So, I hand over to the EHAM control tower. Could you imagine difficulties during sudden g/a for a/c which are longer than 71 metres due to the rather flat shaped 773ER (and 77 79) underbelly?
Imho for 'our' 744 that never has been an issue, right? (Avoided) tailstrike is a rare, almost unknown 744 issue, imho.
Ah Um I flew the last scheduled flight for the 742 for Atlas on Feb 26, 2012. And Kalitta is still operating 3 I believe.
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