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  • American Airlines may return to India

    According to this link they are reconsidering Delhi route nonstop again http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...w/52230631.cms


  • #2
    I doubt this will happen, but will be willing to eat crow if it does. AI's move of late have been to strengthen their connectivity to the USA (announcing AMD-LHR-EWR this week, and discussing greatly positive results on the recent DEL-SFO) and connecting to UA's hubs. Their recent connection, and partnership to AC's own YYZ-DEL (and AC upping the service recently) shows strength in one specific market - the ULH non-stops to India. That is the only effective competition to the EU3 (who offer a decent break in between) or the ME4 (added THY for fun). With such a competitive market - there are few options for AA to chose here.

    1). JFK is served by AI directly - and every other competitor in the World.
    2). CLT would be difficult to do - both for range, and for yields. Admittedly, there are many NRIs in the Carolinas - but I cannot imagine PDEW to make it work for AA.
    3). PHL - does AA have enough aggregate traffic coming to PHL to add to the O&D (that is not tempted by EWR in the overlapping market areas). AA dropped TLV citing low profitability. That bar thus seems quite high.
    4). ORD - AI is there, and non-stop.
    5). PHX - um, whom?
    6). LAX - The issue here is lessened (compared to JFK) but no better financially. Sure, AA is hoping to grow LAX as its Asian Gateway (and have expanded aggressively here, launching HKG, hopping onto the SYD, getting the re-timed HND route, AKL launching soon). That said every Asian carrier hopping the pacific dilutes premium yields. AA needs to worry that overflying someone's hub dilutes their own yields significantly - a lesson they have adapted to LAX.
    7). MIA - Too long, too few passengers. Sure, South Florida in parts is much more Desi Girl than Desi Arnaz - but with QR at MIA, and EK at MCO - every European carrier and then some serving MIA - AA would then have to reverse their publicly stated policy that they are currently not interested in MIA-Asia flying.
    . DFW - thus the most likely target for a pick up. There is a significant NRI population there (but is there enough yields to make it work?). It's the only 'fortress hub' that has no geographical challenge around. IAH does have services to Asia, but few drive from DFW to IAH. Once you're connecting...

    Now, consider how that aircraft (a 777-200, a 787-8, a 787-9, a 777-300 or, in future, an A350) could be doing better. AA has not sat this game out either (since last time). JV partners (especially BA) have provided AA with revenue connecting their own passengers. As much as I love, and hope for this to happen - AA needs a partner in India for this to be successful. With AI being *A, the only major, international, legacy carrier left in India would be JetAirways. AA is cozy enough with EY, perhaps they can flex the relationship a bit more. I HIGHLY doubt that a little man in Doha will not be highly motivated to retaliate against fellow OneWorld partner, and the Indian government (who has been denying his requests for more seats to India). The other option is to follow QR, and hope to latch onto one of the LCCs as a local partner. Either way, without the support - AA will launch a route, and be the most disadvantaged party from the get-go, one competitor away from not making it.
    Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by AA 1818 View Post
      I doubt this will happen, but will be willing to eat crow if it does. AI's move of late have been to strengthen their connectivity to the USA (announcing AMD-LHR-EWR this week, and discussing greatly positive results on the recent DEL-SFO) and connecting to UA's hubs. Their recent connection, and partnership to AC's own YYZ-DEL (and AC upping the service recently) shows strength in one specific market - the ULH non-stops to India. That is the only effective competition to the EU3 (who offer a decent break in between) or the ME4 (added THY for fun). With such a competitive market - there are few options for AA to chose here.

      1). JFK is served by AI directly - and every other competitor in the World.
      Hm. Yes. AI goes nonstop to JFK. Approx 6,800 nmi. There is not the question if they have an aircraft to do this. But even on board my favourite aircraft of all times, I wonder if such a distance shouldn't be divided into two parts.
      A few days ago, I had a discussion with Gabriel. A European 747 reaches him nonstop. But Gabriel is nearer to me than 6,800 nmi. I don't know who today provides the longest nonstop flight in commercial aviation. "More than 12 hours" is a new category for me. But I know one airline that does not go nonstop to JFK.

      I know one or two things about B744 and QF-B744ER, but even the ER Version does not fly the JFK destination nonstop.

      Health is one argument against flights that exceed the B744ER range. Even for my avatar (which is easily reached nonstop), a serious doctor will recommend special stockings for passengers.

      I know one airline, that provides India-JFK with 1 stop.
      The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
      The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
      And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
      This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

      Comment


      • #4
        AA also certainly could chose one of their jets that theoretically can be flown nonstop for more than 12 hours.

        But let me return to Gabriel. This is a 747 flight, and I'd need more than 12 hours if I took my B744 simulator. Pilots always have something to do.

        But passengers? You can watch 1 movie, 2 movies, 3 movies, and then you sleep 8 hours. And after that, you are still in the air!

        "More than 12 hours" is a special category, even in a 747. Some pilots say, "the real longhaul" begins with 5,000 nmi.

        Must've been a 747 pilot who said that.
        The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
        The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
        And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
        This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
          Hm. Yes. AI goes nonstop to JFK. Approx 6,800 nmi. There is not the question if they have an aircraft to do this. But even on board my favourite aircraft of all times, I wonder if such a distance shouldn't be divided into two parts.
          A few days ago, I had a discussion with Gabriel. A European 747 reaches him nonstop. But Gabriel is nearer to me than 6,800 nmi. I don't know who today provides the longest nonstop flight in commercial aviation. "More than 12 hours" is a new category for me. But I know one airline that does not go nonstop to JFK.

          I know one or two things about B744 and QF-B744ER, but even the ER Version does not fly the JFK destination nonstop.

          Health is one argument against flights that exceed the B744ER range. Even for my avatar (which is easily reached nonstop), a serious doctor will recommend special stockings for passengers.

          I know one airline, that provides India-JFK with 1 stop.
          The competitive factor here is the non-stop advantage, that truly only AI can provide in this case. It may not be cost-effective, as AI has issues with profitability, but adding one stop (as they already do in LHR, as well, if you wished to fly EWR-LHR-DEL/BOM) and that now makes them compete against the best and brightest. AI is stunning, but EK is impressive, QR is innovative, and EY is opulent - AF; sophisticated and elegant, BA; refined and outstanding, LH; delightfully/intelligently perfected, TK; a destination in itself - and then add literally everyone else. AI has few advantages, and this is the best one in this case. It will take high-yielding that need to be there, non-stop - and the health benefits outweigh the need. For most all other passengers, AI has LHR bound traffic.

          AI, despite being dogged as being 'un-friendly' is quite kind in this respect - as I have seen flight attendants assist passengers, and demonstrate how and when to stretch (pushing into the space at your feet), and move about the cabin. Luckily, with PM Modi being so very yoga-conscious; the discussion of movement is not every too foreign or alien to most Indians - and so, it lends to an easier attitude towards the necessity given to exercises done on board. Interestingly enough, on the trips that I took with them - the majority of their passengers were a younger (not as many older relatives traveling home/back) and most were traveling back to India for a specific need (because at the time of booking, every one-stop option was cheaper) thus more often justifying the need of the price premium than in most cases.

          I would, of course, be naturally conscious of the passenger. Case in point, with my Grand Father, this would not be the best option, but alone - I can handle it. I'm biased, but the food is great, and comparably to the average U.S. experience - good. If you had to be on the flight anyway - those things become a pleasant surprise.

          As for long-flights; DFW-SYD is a whopper (operated as QF, on perhaps the best plane for long haul and it is still a schelp. Qantas is a fantastic airline, and I am sure that you are pampered to the gills - all 16 hours and 55 minutes of it!

          Here's the list of a comprehensive break down of the ULH's:


          Note; AI's EWR-BOM is at the bottom of the list - as the 30th longest flight in the World...
          Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
            AA also certainly could chose one of their jets that theoretically can be flown nonstop for more than 12 hours.

            But let me return to Gabriel. This is a 747 flight, and I'd need more than 12 hours if I took my B744 simulator. Pilots always have something to do.

            But passengers? You can watch 1 movie, 2 movies, 3 movies, and then you sleep 8 hours. And after that, you are still in the air!

            "More than 12 hours" is a special category, even in a 747. Some pilots say, "the real longhaul" begins with 5,000 nmi.

            Must've been a 747 pilot who said that.
            AA already does many +12 hours flights now!

            DFW-HKG - 777-300ER - 7058nmi is the current leader.

            That said, if we hold the 5000nmi limit true;
            LAX-GRU - 5349 nmi.
            LAX-PEK - 5431 nmi.
            LAX-AKL - 5651 nmi.
            LAX-PVG - 5635 nmi.
            LAX-SYD - 6506 nmi.

            AND those are just the ones from LAX.
            AND all are flown with two engines.
            Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by AA 1818 View Post
              The competitive factor here is the non-stop advantage, that truly only AI can provide in this case....
              AI also has a disadvantage, and that is the very fact that they are AI. There are plenty of people out there who won't get on a VT-registered airplane, in fact, quite a few of those people are NRIs.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                AI also has a disadvantage, and that is the very fact that they are AI. There are plenty of people out there who won't get on a VT-registered airplane, in fact, quite a few of those people are NRIs.
                That is certainly not a criteria on Expedia, Travelocity or Kayak.

                Let's not be rash here - I increasingly expect more and more intelligent, informed customers. However, rarely do customers look at anything but pricing. Sure, if the price is right, or an employer paying for it - you may have an option, or two. However, if you are going to operate on the statistically-false anachronism that AirIndia is unsafe - then you're going to need the money to choose accordingly.

                Now, let's tackle the core of your argument - that any 'VT' registered airplane is unsafe. Care to provide some facts to back up your statements? Or, will you rely on the tired, factually incorrect, often prejudiced argument that is often the case when any non-Indian decides to tackle the issue?

                Here are some facts, though that might change your mind;

                http://www.ibef.org/industry/indian-aviation.aspx

                In January 2016, domestic air passenger traffic rose 23 per cent to 7.66 million from 6.25 million during the same month of last year.
                Passenger traffic during the January-December 2015 increased at a rate of 20.3 per cent to 81.1 million from 67.4 million in the corresponding period a year ago.
                In January 2016, total aircraft movements at all Indian airports stood at 156,048, which was[/b] 15.9 per cent higher[/b] than January 2015.
                International and domestic aircraft movements increased 10.6 per cent and 17.5 per cent, respectively, in January 2016.
                Indian domestic air traffic is expected to cross 100 million passengers by FY2017, compared to 81 million passengers in 2015, as per Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation (CAPA).
                India is among the five fastest-growing aviation markets globally with 275 million new passengers.
                The airlines operating in India are projected to record a collective operating profit of Rs 8,100 crore (US$ 1.29 billion) in fiscal year 2016 , according to Crisil Ltd.
                That is a fantastically large market.

                If your argument is that Indian authorities (the ones who administer registration to the 'VT' airplanes) are inept, or incapable - does such a large market sustain, administer and regulate itself? No, this is an industry. No one wants a crash, and best practices, supportive laws, and frequent checks assist in that matter. All regulatory bodies (regardless of nationality) have alot of work to do, and India's is no exception. It should be better managed, less corrupt, and have a greater field of intelligence to work with, employees respected and paid more. However - at present here are their impressive results.

                If your argument is that aircraft maintained in India are not professionally (and may I say, expertly) maintained; neither Boeing, nor Airbus agree with you.

                http://www.ibef.org/industry/indian-aviation.aspx
                Boeing, has outlined the company’s long term commitment to investing in India in terms of funds as well as skills, capabilities, infrastructure and partnerships so as to help the aerospace sector build capacity and become one of the drivers of the Indian economy.
                US-based aircraft manufacturer Boeing plans to assemble one of its two helicopters namely, Chinook (heavy-lift) or Apache (attack type) in India, thus becoming yet another global company to invest in India encouraged by the ‘Make in India’ campaign.
                Airbus SAS, one of the top two aircraft manufacturers in the world, plans to open aircraft maintenance and repair overhaul (MRO) facility in India.
                Airbus, the world’s leading aircraft maker, expects India’s aviation industry to grow at over 10 per cent annually in the next decade, almost double the average growth rate of the global aviation industry.
                Airbus has committed to source products worth US$ 2 billion cumulatively over the next five years from India; the company plans to provide customized maintenance and other services closer to the base for all its airline customers in India.
                Or, maybe it is the airlines (those operating with the 'VT' marker) that is at fault.
                1). At the time of the order, this was Airbus largest order by numbers, ever.

                http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...der-by-number/
                IndiGo placed an order in 2005 for 100 A320s which have all now been delivered. In 2011 IndiGo became the first Indian operator to commit to the A320neo bringing their total to 280 Airbus aircraft. With today’s announcement, IndiGo has ordered 530 A320 Family aircraft with Airbus.
                2). ..and another, for Embraer;

                http://in.reuters.com/article/airsho...A1C04X20140213
                Embraer, the world's largest maker of regional aircraft, clinched its first major Indian deal for 50 jets valued at $2.94 billion from start-up Indian domestic carrier Air Costa.
                Air Costa will become the first customer of the E-Jet E2s, the upgraded re-engined variants of the company's aircraft, in India when it receives its first aircraft in 2018, company officials told a media briefing at the Singapore Airshow on Thursday.
                So, the Rupees are good ($2.97 Billion worth) and so is the reputation of the airline, the regulatory body, the mechanics, and the legacy of the manufacturer - seeing that this will be their launch customer.

                3)...and another, this time for Boeing;

                http://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-b...ays-1447054496

                Boeing Co. on Monday signed an order for 75 single-aisle planes with India’s Jet Airways, valued at around $8 billion at list price.


                This now leads to an extension of that thought, with JetAirways being the perfect tie-in.

                If, your argument is that people are avoiding VT-registered airplanes - you're categorically incorrect.

                1). All of the evidence above resoundingly points to a growing, and profitable market. Someone has to be getting on those planes. I cannot imagine that these airlines are catering to non-Indians alone.

                2). Delta, KLM, AirFrance especially disagree with you;

                http://news.delta.com/delta-partners...-india-network

                Effective March 27, Jet Airways, India’s premier international airline, will launch daily non-stop flights from Amsterdam to each to its hubs in Mumbai and New Delhi. These will complement KLM’s daily flight between Amsterdam and New Delhi. Furthermore, Jet Airways will also operate a daily flight to Toronto from Amsterdam.

                The three-way partnership will enable customers to enjoy enhanced connectivity and seamless travel throughout the combined networks of Jet Airways, KLM and Delta.

                Nat Pieper, Delta's Senior Vice President - Europe, Middle East and Africa, said: “With more than 11,000 customers flying between the U.S. and India each day, our partnership with Jet Airways will enable us to meet the high demand for flights between the United States and the Indian subcontinent.
                That's me bringing it home for ya - because this is directly from Delta.com.

                3). All of Star Alliance disagrees with you;




                Listen, I am with you - in a certain respect. I do think that India needs to change, in order to be better and grow in a competitive World. Were there challenges in the past - certainly, but not nearly as bad as reputation that AI, Indian Aviation, Indian Carriers, Indian Regulators, Indian Airport, Indians themselves, or India deserve on these forums. Change is necessary, and important - and it will come; to the industry that needs it (higher safety standards, more intelligent planning, less corruption). In order to properly identify the necessary changes though, I need to change your mind that India is not worthy of the investment.
                Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by AA 1818 View Post
                  Let's not be rash here - I increasingly expect more and more intelligent, informed customers. However, rarely do customers look at anything but pricing. Sure, if the price is right, or an employer paying for it - you may have an option, or two. However, if you are going to operate on the statistically-false anachronism that AirIndia is unsafe - then you're going to need the money to choose accordingly.

                  Now, let's tackle the core of your argument - that any 'VT' registered airplane is unsafe. Care to provide some facts to back up your statements? Or, will you rely on the tired, factually incorrect, often prejudiced arguement that is often the case when any non-Indian decides to tackle the issue?
                  I never said anything VT-registered was unsafe (although I do find it interesting that your mind immediately went in that direction, I kinda wonder why). What I did say was that many people (including, maybe even ESPECIALLY ethnic Indians) won't go near anything Indian-owned or Indian-run, especially when it comes to air travel. Whether such people are right or wrong to do that, that's not for me to say.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                    I never said anything VT-registered was unsafe (although I do find it interesting that your mind immediately went in that direction, I kinda wonder why). What I did say was that many people (including, maybe even ESPECIALLY ethnic Indians) won't go near anything Indian-owned or Indian-run, especially when it comes to air travel. Whether such people are right or wrong to do that, that's not for me to say.
                    And my point, as exactly stated above (in totality) - is that those people are being made increasingly irrelevant by their own prejudiced, outdated views.

                    You're completely right - there are some NRIs that avoid Indian carriers based on the idea that Indian carriers provide sub-standard services, or handle IrrOPS differently. I can admit that, but the market has long done-away with that argument by so praising, and deeply entrenching Indian carriers into their networks. AirIndia is in Star Alliance. SkyTeam is all but rolling out the carpet for JetAirways. So, who is wrong - the NRI, or Sky and Star Alliances respectively?

                    A non-resident Indian, is by definition, an Indian. The vast majority of Indians travel with, increasingly choose and continuously patronize Indian carriers. My NRI card does not prevent me from seeing that every Indian carrier, every aircraft manufacturer, every major international carrier (the ME3, TK, the Euro3, most 2nd tier European carriers with the capable, SQ, TG et al), and every big business that follows them are in India and looking to expand. Let some idiotic NRIs keep their prejudices - I'll keep my eyes open, to a 7% Growth rate this year (and expected steady, fast growth until 2020) - a booming aviation sector, and investment opportunities.

                    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                    I never said anything VT-registered was unsafe (although I do find it interesting that your mind immediately went in that direction, I kinda wonder why).
                    Ok then, enough for being coy - come out with it. What is the basis of your statement, because I would like to argue your matter based on fact. I think that I provided ample meat above, but I would like to be succinct. What exactly do you mean by;

                    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                    There are plenty of people out there who won't get on a VT-registered airplane, in fact, quite a few of those people are NRIs.
                    because my point is that, from every angle that an NRI would have, to object to "getting on a VT-registered airplane" has been rendered incoherent based on the facts. I would not make that argument in public, for shame of sounding so outdated, regressive and un-intelligent. I was just hoping to have anyone avoid make the same mistake, and facts help.
                    Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                    Comment

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