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Flydubai Flight 981 Crashes on Landing in Rostov-on-Don, Russia
...Radio altimeters are going to trigger the GPWS long before you meet treetops, regardless of the barometer setting...
Originally posted by Boeing Bobby sort of
Fatigue
Tough precision approach...maybe focusing hard on the DH and focusing on staying awake at the same time...with fair success...not on your best SA game when the radar altitude warning sounds...a bit slow to respond to the radar altimeter...
Nothing to support it, but plausible.
Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
I know all the talk is now about fatigue and that this is an 800 series 737, but from the 2 videos it looks suspiciously like the old 737 rudder deflection.
I'm almost certain fatigue has played a central role here, and perhaps poor training as well. I will be very surprised if it hasn't.
To solve this recurring theme in aviation disasters, the UN must grant global jurisdiction to the ICAO to enforce certain global safety standards and one of those must be duty roster restrictions. Those limits must be adequate to prevent fatigue. If any individual operator is violating these, the ICAO should have the authority to ground that airline and the respective CAA should be required to enforce that measure and assure compliance before lifting the restriction or suffer a category 2 status and banishment from major international destinations. Currently, the industry-friendly ICAO makes 'recommendations' about 'fatigue management' and operators are free to say 'thanks, but no thanks'.
As I said approximately one million posts ago, flying fatigued is ultimately no different from flying intoxicated. You wouldn't want the ICAO giving out 'intoxication management' advice. It's a no-go issue. It is unconditionally forbidden.
At the very least, I would like the ICAO to publish and distribute a green/red safety-culture listing of every airline operating 30+ pax aircraft. And I'd like the now comfortably profitible industry to fund that.
The UN understands sovereignty and they've managed to reach consensus and cooperation on issues where there is universal concern. And the ICAO already has the power to ban foreign airlines from flying into the US.
Back on topic. Has somebody yet mentioned the conditions? Afaik, there was a storm. And the two B738 pilots tried to exceed the a/c limits? Only a first rough guess.
Even a 747 has limits.
PS: Good evening, Mr. Hyper Moderator.
Last edited by LH-B744; 2016-03-22, 23:27.
Reason: hyper moderator is still alive.
The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
It seems to drop like a stone with very little forward speed. I think that the descending light is landing lights rather than fire. Windshear/microburst as first guess for me.
Whatever the cause let all those lost Rest In Piece.
Accident causes are still under investigation."" [from en.wiki]
Rostov na Donu, as the Russians say, provides exactly 2500 metres of concrete for a 757, 767, 777, 747 or B738 landing. That is not much. I would not own this nickname, if my home airport couldn't guarantee a safe B744 landing.
I remember an incident in... Mangalore, India. VOML also provides not more than 2450 metres of concrete, for a B738... A 738 is not small, it almost reaches 767 dimensions (approx. 40 metres long), and now it gets interesting.
Official rwy length for a 737-800 at MTOW: 2400 metres, with ISA conditions...
That's the same if you'd try to perform a B744 take off with MTOW on my home airport. Theoretically, it fits, but only with ISA conditions. And you probably need a perfect touch down (landing), for a full LH-B744 at Lohausen. "She" carries 8+66+270 seats.
But speculations are not Golden. I don't have a B738 simulator here, so I can't really "play it", even if I knew all the conditions...
The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
...And the two B738 pilots tried to exceed the a/c limits?...
No.
Unless you are suggesting that the actual final descent rate at touchdown was deliberate. A touchdown at that descent rate did indeed exceed a/c limits.
Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
seems like a normal go around and climb into the clouds at 0:40. 33sec later at 1:13, it breaks out of the clouds in a near nosedive. stall? or spatial disorientation like Kenya 407/Ethiopian 409?
The UN understands sovereignty and they've managed to reach consensus and cooperation on issues where there is universal concern. And the ICAO already has the power to ban foreign airlines from flying into the US.
1. the UN has no jurisdiction
2. the ICAO is PART of the UN
3. the ICAO can't ban anyone from flying anywhere, ESPECIALLY not the US
4. the ICAO merely makes suggestions and countries follow or not.
1. the UN has no jurisdiction
2. the ICAO is PART of the UN
3. the ICAO can't ban anyone from flying anywhere, ESPECIALLY not the US
4. the ICAO merely makes suggestions and countries follow or not.
The UN established the ICAO partly to standardize oversight of CAA's in international aviation (as required by the Chicago Convention). Under the International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA), countries must meet the ICAO standards or they will be categorized as 'Category 2' countries and thus prohibited from serving many popular destinations including the US. Thus the ICAO, by depriving them of a Category 1 status, has the power to effectively ban them ESPECIALLY in the US.
The conditions of Category 1 could be expanded and more clearly defined and standardized to include things like duty roster restrictions. It would save countless lives. It's deplorable that we haven't done this in 2016 and that you can still board a five year old Boeing in a place like Dubai and be unknowingly in the hands of a very poor pilot culture. Aviation is no place for caveat emptor...
ICAO already has the power to ban foreign airlines from flying into the US.
What?
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
I know all the talk is now about fatigue and that this is an 800 series 737, but from the 2 videos it looks suspiciously like the old 737 rudder deflection.
Not sure what you're seeing that's peculiar to 737, as practically every type under the sun has come down steeply at one time or another.
The UN established the ICAO partly to standardize oversight of CAA's in international aviation (as required by the Chicago Convention). Under the International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA), countries must meet the ICAO standards or they will be categorized as 'Category 2' countries and thus prohibited from serving many popular destinations including the US. Thus the ICAO, by depriving them of a Category 1 status, has the power to effectively ban them ESPECIALLY in the US.
Um... that's a wonderful explanation of how *all airlines from a specific country* could be excluded from the US, but doesn't cover how one particular airline could be banned.
This is just my opinion but I suspect if the UAE were given category 2 status, the folks at Emirates (the airline, not the country) might be a little upset...
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