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Flydubai Flight 981 Crashes on Landing in Rostov-on-Don, Russia

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  • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    They went from say 15 degrees nose up to more than 50 degrees nose down in a bunch of seconds. They went from +1G to -1G probably a much smaler bunch of seconds. There is no way to miss that. Spatial disorientation, somatogravic or somatogyral illusions, fatigue, and what not may help explain why this was caused in the first place and maybe why they could not recover, but they immediately knew that there was something very very bad going on.

    This is very speculative and fuzzy, but it looks that something wrong happened with the trim (runaway or unintentional command in the AND direction) and that they could not recover from the subsequent pitch-down (and then dive) be it because they didn't recognize the trim issue or because they could not correct it, and elevator alone was not enough.
    Originally posted by AV Herald
    In the MAK's English version of the update of Apr 8th 2016...: the simultaneous actions were a nose down input by the crew and a trim 5 degrees nose down.
    Sounds a lot like vestibular disorientation to me. I would like to know what "did not permit" means...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
      Typical Trump voter !!...offending people around
      Hm. In most of all cases since the year 2008, I am the person who deletes Visitor Messages from my profile. This BoBo seems to be an exception. We should relax.

      Btw, I fully second what you say.
      The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
      The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
      And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
      This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        In a rare moment of seriousness for me, may I suggest that this might simply be a language barrier.

        Perhaps a person who's native language is English might say, "I know that jets are able to fly quite well in low visibility and bad weather using all of the instrument guidance and ATC systems..."

        During your glorious oriental travels have you ever seen one of those signs that says, "Please take advantage of the maids". Or aware what happens when you strictly translate "Take it easy" into Spanish?

        Indeed LH-B's stuff sounds strange, but...
        I simply tried to say that
        neither the (weather) conditions, if assumed with 23027, and ok, some low clouds at 2000,
        nor
        the visibility (haze?)
        prevents me from being sucessful in a LH-B744 simulator.

        I can admit (!) that I was not there at ... 182200 (?). And this is still "under investigation".

        But the investigation yet has shown something strange. Aren't there two unwritten rules that say,
        "Go around if there is something strange before ALL your tires have contact."
        and
        "Request diversion if your first go around was not sucessful."
        ?

        In German TV, there some hours ago was mentioned a flight that suddenly comes to my mind here.
        Fedex Flight 80. An MD-11F was not ready to proceed to her parking position because not all her tires had contact...

        PS: I don't like to use the "Back in 78, the planet was a paradise."-cliché. But let me say it with the Golden Girls theme song:
        Thank You (1978_). For somehow bein an advocate for the right side.
        Last edited by LH-B744; 2016-04-09, 21:47. Reason: Thank You.
        The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
        The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
        And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
        This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

        Comment


        • Why do I cite FX 80? Well.

          the aircraft struck the ground with a nose-down pitch of about 60 degrees
          , from en.wiki "flydubai 981"

          In the older case, it seems to have been the F/O (again), who was responsible for "all tires have contact". And he pushed the yoke so that his MD-11F came in with nose gear first!

          There are parallels, aren't there.

          I call myself an aviation beginner, as I, today, only provide 620 simulator flight hours on a/c with more than one engine. But even for me, it seems like a thing that you can't force me to do, push the yoke beyond 1000.
          The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
          The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
          And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
          This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
            But even for me, it seems like a thing that you can't force me to do, push the yoke beyond 1000.
            Never? Under no circumstance would you intentionally do that? Really?

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              Never? Under no circumstance would you intentionally do that? Really?


              Like I said! And no I am not voting for Trump! LOL

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                Like I said! And no I am not voting for Trump! LOL
                Apologies, I'm still playing devils advocate...

                ...Maybe what he really means is that you should think twice before AGRESSIVELY pushing the yoke forward when you are low...I don't know what the FCOM says, but it seems like a fairly good rule of thumb.

                Yeah, the "never/no circumstances" is one of those absolute statements that falls apart if collision avoidance or perhaps stall avoidance is needed, or a few other scenarios call for it...

                ...but, you are close to the ground so a hard nose over does seem like a generally bad idea.

                And, yeah, who says that a crazy-aggressive nose over is that much better of an idea at FL410...probably good to not do it if you don't have to...

                But, I'm with you Bobby...I'm thinking that LS-D744 may be at FL410 (not necessarily in an airplane) and seeing something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQpVAWFvkbU on the primary flight display and asking, "What's it doing now".
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  Apologies, I'm still playing devils advocate...

                  ...Maybe what he really means is that you should think twice before AGRESSIVELY pushing the yoke forward when you are low...I don't know what the FCOM says, but it seems like a fairly good rule of thumb.
                  The FCOM says keep yourself (and your neighbors in the back) away from situations where pushing the yoke forward at low altitude might SEEM like the right thing to do, i.e. lost situational awareness. Until you understand and accept human factors 3WE, you will never understand anything about these 'fairly-good-rule-of-thumb' violations.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 3WE
                    Until you understand and accept human factors Evan, you will never understand anything about cryptic, type-specific memory checklists devoid of broad fundamentals.
                    Until you try driving something that goes faster and/or higher than your computer keyboard, you will not understand human factors.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • Thank God that the pilot of BA38, G-YMMM on 17.01.2008 at Heathrow pushed forward on short finals to gain some airspeed. If he hadn't then Hatton Cross Underground Station would probably have been turned into a smouldering ruin with passenger and ground fatalities. !!
                      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        The FCOM says keep yourself (and your neighbors in the back) away from situations where pushing the yoke forward at low altitude might SEEM like the right thing to do, i.e. lost situational awareness. Until you understand and accept human factors 3WE, you will never understand anything about these 'fairly-good-rule-of-thumb' violations.
                        That said, the FCOM also have provision from stall / stall warning recovery, windshear escape, and upset recovery. And I don't think that it has or needs to have a procedure for foreign big aluminum flying object avoidance. Hopefully the pilots will do what ti takes to avoid it even without such procedure (as long as, as seen in "the child of magenta", they don't look down and start to punch buttons).

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                          Thank God that the pilot of BA38, G-YMMM on 17.01.2008 at Heathrow pushed forward on short finals to gain some airspeed. If he hadn't then Hatton Cross Underground Station would probably have been turned into a smouldering ruin with passenger and ground fatalities. !!
                          Exactly. They (more exactly, the FO, who was the PF) pushed down in response to the stickshaker, by the way. Something that was considered a blasphemy not too long ago.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            Exactly. They (more exactly, the FO, who was the PF) pushed down in response to the stickshaker, by the way. Something that was considered a blasphemy not too long ago.
                            Blasphemy? Do you mean in opposition to procedures?

                            Procedures in place in 2008?

                            I'd sure hate it if they pushed over due to basic fundamentals.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                              Thank God that the pilot of BA38, G-YMMM on 17.01.2008 at Heathrow pushed forward on short finals to gain some airspeed...
                              Pure speculation here, but I'm thinking this control input was 'measured', not overly extreme, not resulting in -1G of acceleration, not resulting in a nose-down attitude anywhere close to 15 degrees nose down, nor resulting in much over 100 or 200 feet of unwanted altitude loss.

                              I do disagree with LS-D744's "never/no-circumstances" comment, but conversely agree with the fuzzy general concept of maybe not pushing over too awful much nor more than you really need to when down low.
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                                Until you try driving something that goes faster and/or higher than your computer keyboard, you will not understand human factors.
                                Is that directed at me or at every Boeing engineer and NTSB crash investigator who has never logged an hour of stick time yet understands human factors better than most pilots?

                                Quality pilots will admit this and respect procedure. Those are the ones that don't fly into the ground.

                                Comment

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