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Flydubai Flight 981 Crashes on Landing in Rostov-on-Don, Russia

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  • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    ...but do you agree that this incident is likely due to some other significant factors in addition to $20 disorientation?
    Yes, but to be honest, I don't expect any mechanical or technical issue. Rather, instead of a $20 disorientation, a $2,000,000 screw up (combination of two or more of mistake, disorientation, poor CRM, non-adherence to procedures, lack of airmanship, fatigue, confirmation bias, tunnel vision, others?)... that is... a 100% human factors accident, perhaps combined with the subtleness that the 50 years old design 737 didn't have poka-yoke (aka foll proof) barriers against some of those; very likely this accident would have not happened in an A320 because the plane would have said "sorry Dave, I will not point the noose that low".

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      ...very likely this accident would have not happened in an A320 because the plane would have said "sorry Dave, I will not point the noose that low".
      I'm going to challenge you on this one...

      If crew is royally $20 multiply disoriented, I'm thinking Airbi can be pointed 15 degrees down and banked 60 degrees over and that 2500 feet does not offer a lot of room to recover from the high sink rate that might develop...

      ...They would very likely have crashed at a different location a thousand or two meters away.

      Conversely, would the airbus have given them an precious two extra seconds/whatever to get their wits about them before things became unrecoverable?...

      ...I guess we should wait for the final report.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • I am a structural eng. And not specialest for this issue..
        But as per the movie of accident ..it seems that during fall down ..one wing up and one wing of Boeing down ...
        and as per initial report for black boxes .. it is mentioned that all the equipments was working ...
        I expect there was a strong cross wind .. that lead to rotate a plane .. and then the function of tail to keep balance of plane horizontally was lost .. so my final conclusion ..the cross wind is the major issue that lead to loss this plane...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          I'm going to challenge you on this one...

          If crew is royally $20 multiply disoriented, I'm thinking Airbi can be pointed 15 degrees down and banked 60 degrees over and that 2500 feet does not offer a lot of room to recover from the high sink rate that might develop...

          ...They would very likely have crashed at a different location a thousand or two meters away.

          Conversely, would the airbus have given them an precious two extra seconds/whatever to get their wits about them before things became unrecoverable?...
          What are you even talking about? How do you get to a 70 degree dive in an envelope protected aircraft? Why would a pilot confused by somatogravic illusion on pitch roll 60 degrees? Do you understand the role of pitch trim in this incident? Do you understand that the A320 requires no manual pitch trim in flight and has no pitch trim switches to go runaway on you? This isn't going to happen on an A320 unless some critical multiple system failures happen first. If this was, as Gabriel suggests, a 100% human factors crash, the A320 would have saved the day. I have a lot of respect for the 737 but it is a pilot-error prone aircraft that requires stringent pilot training, CRM and uncompromised mental concentration to fly safely.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            Is it time for a reminder that we just might have to wait for the final report?

            I still suspect it's some sort of mixture and chain of events of several $20.00 disorientations mixed with some loss of control, and perhaps CRM of the pilots having two different $20.00 disorientations, and some fatigue and the turbulence and something 'mechanical' may have broken and what Otto was doing vs. what someone THOUGHT Otto was doing...I'm not sure what the FCOM nor the fundamental rules say when you are diving into the ground at 200 MPH from 1000 feet meaning you have 3.409091 seconds to execute the memory checklist items for recovery.
            I expect turbulence or mechanical problem with tail of plane

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
              What are you even talking about? How do you get to a 70 degree dive in an envelope protected aircraft?
              Did you read?

              I said 60 degree bank and 15 degrees nose down...that ought to give you quite a descent rate with only 2500 feet to play with.

              And, get past your love affair with "somatographic illusions" and get in tune with "old fashioned disorientation"...I was not aware the aircraft was equipped with a mental attitude interpretation monitor.

              The plane did indeed come down in a bank, not a pure dive. Do you know for a fact that someone didn't look down (or perhaps behind) to grab a map or book or something? I've heard that can cause powerful disorientation feelings too.

              Given that they did the initial go-around fairly well, I'm needing a better reference for your special 30-second delayed extreme dual somatographic disorientation requiring a 70 degree nose down attitude to over come...it would make a real cool acronym though SEDHMDSD.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                I'm going to challenge you on this one...

                [...]

                ...I guess we should wait for the final report.
                Damn. There are jp members who use their brain before they write the cheapest insults.

                Thank you.
                The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                Comment


                • I am crushed! And I am sure I will think about it the whole way for the next 13 hours, while I fly a 747-8 from CVG to ICN.

                  Comment


                  • FYI, for those of you still interested in the topic of the thread, as I've said before, this kind of go-around accident is nothing new and well-trained pilots are made well-aware of the dangers of distraction and disorientation as well as steath factors like pitch trim and thrust-pitch coupling. Boeing even ran a special feature article about this in their AERO Magazine back in 2014. Here is the link. The story is on page 14...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by LH-B744
                      Hm. Let me say it with Peter Kesternich (jp member). A jp member does not have to be a professional pilot.

                      I think that's what he tried to tell me, a couple of months ago. And why did he write it? Well, because he does not like people who write
                      'aviation',
                      but in a manner so that intelligent (!) people read between the lines the word
                      'arrogance'.
                      [As far as I remember, Peter likes to avoid abbreviations, so that - theoretically - everybody is able to read this forum. And I like to second Peter's attitude, as long as I have his advice in my mind. Not in every second, I admit...]

                      And now you can guess why I have deleted your messages...
                      What?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                        What?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                          Hm.
                          The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                          The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                          And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                          This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                          Comment


                          • 3WE said it, a few hours before.

                            As long as it is "under investigation" (cited from en wiki, 05-04-16), we can continue until one or two relatively rare jp members reach their
                            jp senior status.

                            But is this helpful?

                            Hm.
                            The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                            The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                            And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                            This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                              3WE said it, a few hours before.

                              As long as it is "under investigation" (cited from en wiki, 05-04-16), we can continue until one or two relatively rare jp members reach their
                              jp senior status.

                              But is this helpful? No I don't think so.

                              Hm.

                              Maybe you should start posting in German, we will translate it and then your post's won't sound so strange. But probably not!

                              Comment


                              • Another valuable resource from the BEA, which is apparently being ignored by operators such as FlyDubai:

                                Study on Aeroplane State Awareness during Go-Around




                                This paper also emphasizes the danger of transitioning from low-speed flight (nose-up stab trim) to high thrust and pitch input during go-around, and the importance of thrust reduction as the only means of recovery once pitching momentum has exceeded elevator authority.
                                Although reduced pitch was standard Boeing procedure (unless he thought he was in wind shear), the pilot of FlyDubai 981 applied full go-around thrust (101-102% N1) and got into 18 degrees of pitch before reducing pitch and thrust at 1900'. At this point the go-around was already unstable, workload distractions were increasing as flaps were automatically retracting and extending repeatedly as the air speed occillated around flap retraction speed and the thrust was firewalled a second time to resume an aggressive vertical speed. The subsequent pitch-over could well have been the result of lost situational awareness, caused by this sequence, fatigue and somatogravic effects.

                                The report stats that many pilots get their only GA training in the SIM and emphasizes the need for better SIM fidelity to reproduce somatogravic effects.

                                And then there is this discomforting thought:
                                Today, however, it’s possible to do MCC on a Beech 200, a single-pilot airplane, whose ergonomics and performance are far removed from a Boeing 737-800 or an Airbus 320.
                                After obtaining an MCC [multi-crew cooperation training], a pilot can legitimately be a candidate to be an airline pilot for a public transport airline.

                                In other news, the CVR has now been completely read out and transcribed...

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