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Just when you thought the horse might have died...

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  • Just when you thought the horse might have died...

    Don’t read this if you’re about to board an airplane. A new report by the Department of Transportation warns that US pilot training no longer helps airline pilots maintain the ability to fly commercial flights manually, because of the surfeit of autonomous technology inside the cockpit.
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  • #2
    Blah blah blah...parlour talk, parlour talk...well I think that...., and from my keyboard here....why don't they just...magenta lines and more parlour talk!

    Concur?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3

      While airlines have long used automation safely to improve efficiency and reduce pilot workload, several recent accidents, including the July 2013 crash of Asiana Airlines flight 214, have shown that pilots who typically fly with automation can make errors when confronted with an unexpected event or transitioning to manual flying.
      Whaaaat?!

      At what point did they transition to manual flying. They weren't flying at all.

      Name one recent accident not involving an automation-killing upset where pilots couldn't fly the plane? The problem is response to upset and startle-effect human factors, not manual flying skills.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Whaaaat?!

        The problem is response to upset and startle-effect human factors, not manual flying skills.
        as if these two are not hand-in-hand related...

        the answer is simple" take the human out of the equation.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
          as if these two are not hand-in-hand related...

          the answer is simple" take the human out of the equation.
          That answer is simple to state. Not to implement, yet, although less complicated each day.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • #6
            [Asiana Airlines flight 214]

            Originally posted by Evan View Post
            Whaaaat?!

            At what point did they transition to manual flying. They weren't flying at all.

            Name one recent accident not involving an automation-killing upset where pilots couldn't fly the plane? The problem is response to upset and startle-effect human factors, not manual flying skills.
            You can never get away from your black and white thinking.

            The Asian pilots WERE flying- don't say they weren't. They were doing everything BUT watching the airspeed (a most basic skill). But given that one pilot admitted he was scared to land manually and that they didn't follow the basic fundamental procedure of watching their airspeed is evidence that hand flying skills were lacking.

            And bullcrap when you ask us to name ONE crash where the pilots didn't know how to fly (Yeah, they knew how to fly, but hand flying appeared to be a foreign concept in how they addressed the situation.)

            We don't have to "name one incident where the pilots couldn't fly the plane" because it's way too easy to find incidents where hand flying would easily have saved the day, yet the pilots were somehow reluctant or uncomfortable reverting to manual flying.

            As Tee Vee says, it goes hand in hand.

            As most of the world except Evan says, "Some increased emphasis on hand flying might be a good thing" so that when the startle effect happens, click clack paddywhack is towards the top of the FCOMPOHQRH memory checklists 1.1.1.1 to 287.12.5.13. and for 737-200 AND 737-236A and C172 M, N, P, S, and 747 and 787 and A3XX and it's not a foreign concept to pilots.

            Originally posted by Me
            FCOMPOHQRH memory checklists 1.1.1.1 to 287.12.5.13. and for 737-200 AND 737-236A and C172 M, N, P, S, and 747 and 787 and A3XX
            Look at all the crap I typed and see that "watch the airspeed" is nowhere in there. There is tension between basics and specifics that can in some instances get out of balance.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              The Asian pilots WERE flying- don't say they weren't. They were doing everything BUT watching the airspeed (a most basic skill).
              That's not flying. Also the PF wasn't watching the V/S, the PAPI, the autothrottle or the FMA. How is that flying?

              We don't have to "name one incident where the pilots couldn't fly the plane"
              When the subject of the article is:
              US Pilots Forget How to Fly Manually

              then, yes, you do.

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              • #8
                ...by the way, from reading a certain aviation periodical, I have learned that at least one airline now apparently includes "a trip around the pattern" done totally by hand as part of their recurrent simulator training.
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  Guiding a big-ass airliner with your hands from ~5000 feet (and higher and faster than ideal), dead center on the runway down to 1/4 of the mile from the threshold (while dealing with ATC, landing gear, passenger safety, a checlklist or two and a number of aircraft systems) is not flying.
                  Ok, Evan, whatever you say.

                  And apologies, indeed the title of the article is BS. I know how they like to embellish things.

                  That being said, I thought Eric was more interested in the bigger gray fundamental, over-riding concept of hand flying skills versus ingrained, near-relentless use of automation and the humor that, once again, it makes headlines (and recent articles in a poorly-written aviation periodical from a small, country with minimal importance to aviation).
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    That answer is simple to state. Not to implement, yet, although less complicated each day.
                    i was being facetious...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                      i was being facetious...
                      Well, yes, maybe...
                      FAA allows four-seat, remote-controlled plane to fly at drone test site to research merging unmanned planes into the U.S. commercial airspace.

                      As might be expected, there are a lot of drones on display this week at CES. Almost all of them have one thing in common, however: people can't ride in them. We say "almost all," as there is one exception. Ehang's 184 AAV (Autonomous Aerial Vehicle) is designed to carry a single human passenger,…

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        look, dating back to the 80's, we've had fully automated flight, including auto-land. back then, an md-80 pilot told me the plane could do just about everything on its own, but company regs prohibited them from utilizing the FULL automation. so maybe he exaggerated a bit. i imagine that with today's tech, everything from push-back to parking can be fully automated--if it isn't already.

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