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Evan, add Passadero to your no-fly list

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  • Evan, add Passadero to your no-fly list

    So let's see, an ATR-72 approachs to an "only VFR" airport (no NDB or GPS approaches available either) at about midnight, touches down on a soy field 1000ft short of the runway and runs for 100ft before going airborn again, taking out a fence with concrete pylons during the go=around and receiving substantial damage to the fuselage, both propellers and landing gear. They landed without further incident after the second approach and nobody was injured.

    Now, if this was not bad enough, the real reason why you don't want to fly this airline is for the (lack of) seriousness that they take regarding this serious incident:

    The airline stated that due to weather the aircraft needed to go around following a first touch down at 00:23L (03:23Z). The aircraft positioned for another approach and landed safely on the second approach. The passengers disembarked normally.
    And, by the way, the local secretary of transport need to look for a job that better fits his experience, knowledge and attitude: flipping burgers.

    The Secretary of Transport and Traffic of Rondonopolis stated, the incident didn't have any gravity, the plane landed safely and normally some time later.
    So, we don't have many new users in this forum, but just in case let me explain:

    I don't know why, but something VERY serious must have happened here, like:
    - The crew violating the VFR restrictions and making an approach without the runway in sight, or
    - A strong low level wind shear that caused a loss of speed or/and descent that could not be arrested by the crew, or
    - A simple "Asiana/Turkish-like" pilot severe screw-up, or
    - Others?

    In any event, what caused this accident (because it is an accident, not an incident) was very very serious, and the consequences of the accident were limited just to airplane damage because of sheer dumb luck than anything else. We could be perfectly counting bodies now and finding just bodies and parts of bodies with no survivors (the damage to the fuselage was in a zone with critical systems like the rudder pedals and linkage, and the captain himself.

    The lightness of the declarations minimizing the case are more worrying than the event itself. I would much prefer the airline saying something like "An airplane landed short of the runway in bad weather, hit a perimeter fence and went around, subsequently landing safely after a second approach. Nobody was injured but we are taking this significant incident very seriously and we are starting our own internal full-blown investigation and will give all our support to the authorities that will make the official investigation". Then I might think that the airline, perhaps, is concerned about safety after all.

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    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  • #2
    Is this an example of the "Swiss Cheese" Analogy?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      Is this an example of the "Swiss Cheese" Analogy?
      Uh? The list of possible causes was just examples of what kind of things might have happened. What really happened before the short touchdown was not made public yet. I don't know if that's what triggered your question, but I edited the post to make it more clear that they are just possibilities, not things that actually happened.

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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      • #4
        Gabriel, all airlines approving VFR landings at midnight are on my no-fly list, but I will cancel my upcoming Passedero flights immediately. There is safety culture and then there is cheese culture.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Gabriel, all airlines approving VFR landings at midnight are on my no-fly list, but I will cancel my upcoming Passedero flights immediately. There is safety culture and then there is cheese culture.
          pretty sure that night vfr is required for licensure, is it not?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Evan View Post
            Gabriel, all airlines approving VFR landings at midnight are on my no-fly list, but I will cancel my upcoming Passedero flights immediately. There is safety culture and then there is cheese culture.
            I prefer a VFR landing at midnight, as long as it is VMC of course, over an NDB or VOR approach in IMC day or night anyday.
            VFR landings tend to be very safe even at night, especially if the runway has a VASI or PAPI.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              pretty sure that night vfr is required for licensure, is it not?
              Classic circular argument...

              ...anything done that's legal and according to procedure and licensed and trained for should:

              1) be safe and

              2) be extra safe because the procedure has nice safety buffers built in.


              BUT 1:

              Cue discussion of any number of a zillion crashes, ADF approaches, the Localizer UPS at Birmingham, Marshall football team, Corporate Airlines, Kirksville MO, Newly licensed IFR pilot takes off on an IMC flight, Private pilot takes off on a legally VMC flight (JFK jr?), Asiana on a beautiful, clear afternoon with light winds ..........................................................................(etc.)

              BUT 2:

              Seems like this approach had terrain challenges, there's some inference of weather (was it REALLY VMC?) Runway challenges, Runway lighting challenges, Is it ok to totally do away with approach-slope guidance when 99.5% of commercial approaches have that visually and or by instruments.

              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                ...So let's see, an ATR-72 approachs to an "only VFR" airport (no NDB or GPS approaches available either) at about midnight, touches down on a soy field 1000ft short of the runway and runs for 100ft before going airborn again...
                Did the soybean died?
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  [Swiss Cheese Analogy] I don't know if that's what triggered your question.
                  My question was rhetorical.

                  For a crash to occur, all the slices have to line up just right...a rare event.

                  While many holes indeed aligned here, fortunately not ALL the slices aligned, and the aircraft landed and folks deplaned normally after a slight extension to the flight time (as the company's PR department said).

                  They landed short- but a layer of cheese (go-around) saved them.

                  They took out a tough, concrete fence post- but a layer of cheese (perhaps pure, dumb luck) saved them.

                  They may have initiated an approach without proper mental briefing or without proper weather or without proper set up (or any number of things), but a layer of swiss cheese saved that too.

                  IMO, this is indeed an example of the Swiss Cheese Analogy.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                    They took out a tough, concrete fence post- but a layer of cheese (perhaps pure, dumb luck) saved them.
                    IMHO as the term "swiss cheese" is used here, I don't think luck should be considered a layer.
                    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                    Eric Law

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by elaw View Post
                      IMHO as the term "swiss cheese" is used here, I don't think luck should be considered a layer.
                      Understood.

                      However, I had originally thought about writing, "Aircraft designed to collide with concrete fence posts and still circle back and land" but that really isn't what the engineers "intended"...

                      ...so, to survive collisions with random concrete fence posts and return to a landing does involve a certain amount of dumb luck, even though the makers of the ATR deserve a certain amount of praise for it's sturdiness too.

                      ...fortunately there was a layer without a hole, regardless of how we define that layer
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't think so. The ground was quite muddy and soft, so rather than being squashed they likely were re-sown.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                          My question was rhetorical.

                          For a crash to occur, all the slices have to line up just right...a rare event.

                          While many holes indeed aligned here, fortunately not ALL the slices aligned, and the aircraft landed and folks deplaned normally after a slight extension to the flight time (as the company's PR department said).

                          They landed short- but a layer of cheese (go-around) saved them.

                          They took out a tough, concrete fence post- but a layer of cheese (perhaps pure, dumb luck) saved them.

                          They may have initiated an approach without proper mental briefing or without proper weather or without proper set up (or any number of things), but a layer of swiss cheese saved that too.

                          IMO, this is indeed an example of the Swiss Cheese Analogy.
                          I think I don't agree.
                          Going around didn't save them (they very likely were safer staying on the ground than hitting the fence when going back airborne).
                          And I am not so sure if I would consider sheer dumb luck a layer of cheese.
                          I think that all layers and holes aligned and, by sheer dumb lock, nothing (beyond substantial airplane damage) went through the available opening.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            ...Going around didn't save them (they very likely were safer staying on the ground than hitting the fence when going back airborne)...
                            Woah, time out! Soybean fields are not good places to land ATR's...especially when you were actually aiming at normal touchdown zone on a very nearby runway...God knows what was between them and the runway...what if they had gone THROGH the fence instead of just busting the top of the post on the wheel pod? What if the runway had the typical perimeter ditch? We're talking break up, catch fire and probably some dead and inured people, instead of them deplaning normally (with their carry-on baggage) and no twisted ankles from an emergency evacuation.

                            Your point is statistical- yeah, sure, more often on a go-around after a really royal, metal-bending FUBAR means you lose control higher and faster and crash much more severely, killing almost everyone. But not for this case.

                            An individual flight either crashes, or it doesn't- STATS DON'T MATTER AFTER THE FACT (ONLY BEFORE).
                            The go-around resulted in an excellent landing (the plane will fly again after some repair). Had they stayed on the ground, my money would be on a LESS THAN GOOD landing as I don't think everyone would walk away.

                            Maybe they statistically did the wrong thing in going around- but dumb luck was on their side in many ways (whether you call it a slice of cheese or not)- and going around kept them from breaking up and plowing through God-knows what, and instead a normal deplaning...."Gracias por vuelo Passadero. Buenos noches. Hasta la subsequento vuelo"
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                              pretty sure that night vfr is required for licensure, is it not?
                              Hi TeeVee. Good to see that "the grumpy old men" are online again. When I compare your activity to mine, it seems like I am here too seldom... especially because I am longer here than you.

                              NVFR is a US phenomenon. Afaik, it does not exist at my home airport. Here, we provide two options:
                              VFR (a real visual touchdown, only available between dawn and dusk)
                              or
                              IFR** (full ILS guidance, beginning with entrance into the German airspace)

                              **requires an a/c and at least one pilot with IFR license.
                              The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                              The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                              And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                              This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

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