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  • #76
    Now that you have my dander up, it is real easy for you keyboard commanders to read all the crap on the internet and think that is the way it really is on the line. Just because you have a private with a couple of hundred hours flying your 150 on a blue and sunny day gives you no insight what so ever as to what it is like to fly a 987,000 pound aircraft around the world in all kinds of different conditions. You ever fly your MS flight sim into Katmandu? I was given a flight plan and sent there in a 747-200 having never been there in my life.

    I am going to “try” and sleep most of the day here in Narita Japan, then tonight I have to fly a whole 1 hour trip to Nagoya and sit 2 hours while they transfer a load of freight. Then back into the night another 2 hours over to Shanghai and another 3 hours on the ground, then another 2 hours back to Narita. Myself and 2 First Officers 1 of which has maybe 20 hours in the 74. The landing will be just after the sun comes up around 7 am local, Narita could quite possibly be a CAT II approach this time of the year, and that is after being up since 6 pm the night before.

    Doesn’t sound quite as glamorous anymore does it? So when I say I deserve a little respect, I have F*****G earned it! I have paid my dues to be where I am at this stage of my career. I started in old beat up airplanes left over from WW2 with NO magenta lines, NO auto-pilots, NO GPS and NO CPDLC. So you are G.D right it pisses me off when I have to deal with some snot nose kid younger than my son that has no manners.

    I have a 27 year old son and he was brought with manners. His mother and I instilled in him the difference between right and wrong, and respect. And don’t get me wrong, there are more of the new generation that are respectful and appreciate getting instruction from us “old” folks than the former.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
      it is hard to argue with 40 + years of experience.
      No it isn't!

      Take a drive to Tampa sometime and observe some of the the drivers there who have 40+ years of experience... you know which ones I'm talking about. Think about whether you'd want to be in the car with them for any length of time.

      Experience is great if you've been working to maintain, and whenever possible improve, your skills over time. And many people (yourself included, I'm sure) do just that.

      But there are also people out there who weren't so great to begin with, don't have the word "improvement" in their vocabulary, and have been repeating the same mistakes for decades. I'd much rather be in the cockpit (or passenger compartment) with a young pilot with a good attitude, a good head on his shoulders, and good skills, than a person like that.

      The guys that crashed that Gulfstream at KBED last year... how much experience did they have?
      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

      Eric Law

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by elaw View Post
        No it isn't!

        Take a drive to Tampa sometime and observe some of the the drivers there who have 40+ years of experience... you know which ones I'm talking about. Think about whether you'd want to be in the car with them for any length of time.

        Experience is great if you've been working to maintain, and whenever possible improve, your skills over time. And many people (yourself included, I'm sure) do just that.

        But there are also people out there who weren't so great to begin with, don't have the word "improvement" in their vocabulary, and have been repeating the same mistakes for decades. I'd much rather be in the cockpit (or passenger compartment) with a young pilot with a good attitude, a good head on his shoulders, and good skills, than a person like that.

        The guys that crashed that Gulfstream at KBED last year... how much experience did they have?
        O.K. You have just proven my point! You are comparing driving an automobile to flying a transport category jet.

        We are in the simulator twice a year and in recurrent ground school once a year.

        I don't know the particulars of the Gulfstream crash, so I will not speculate.

        Comment


        • #79
          There's no need to speculate on the Gulfstream accident, the report is available at http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/A...ts/AAR1503.pdf

          Executive summary: an ATP with 8,275 hours of experience and an ATP with 18,200 hours of experience, with 1,400 and 2,800 hours respectively in the G-IV, attempted takeoff with the gust lock engaged and a crash and death of all crew and pax ensued. The investigation revealed that in the 175 flights recorded on the FDR (most flown by this crew), flight control checks were not performed 98% of the time - including of course the accident flight. Can you really say with a straight face that if this crew were more experienced, they would have done better?

          Tell me, does your simulator training encompass every possible thing that could go wrong during a flight?

          For example, have any of those sessions included a situation where shortly after takeoff, all engines are taken out by a flock of birds and you have to land the aircraft in the Hudson river? As far as I know, there are only two pilots in the world with experience doing that. No other pilots have experience in that particular scenario, regardless of whether they've flown 100 or 10,000 hours.
          Be alert! America needs more lerts.

          Eric Law

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by elaw View Post
            There's no need to speculate on the Gulfstream accident, the report is available at http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/A...ts/AAR1503.pdf

            Executive summary: an ATP with 8,275 hours of experience and an ATP with 18,200 hours of experience, with 1,400 and 2,800 hours respectively in the G-IV, attempted takeoff with the gust lock engaged and a crash and death of all crew and pax ensued. The investigation revealed that in the 175 flights recorded on the FDR (most flown by this crew), flight control checks were not performed 98% of the time (including of course the accident flight). Can you really say with a straight face that if this crew were more experienced, they would have done better?

            Tell me, does your simulator training encompass every possible thing that could go wrong during a flight?

            For example, have any of those sessions included a situation where shortly after takeoff, all engines are taken out by a flock of birds and you have to land the aircraft in the Hudson river? As far as I know, there are only two pilots in the world with experience doing that. No other pilots have experience in that particular scenario, regardless of whether they've flown 100 or 10,000 hours.

            Once again, you prove my point. A: That the pilots of the Gulfstream were not following procedure has nothing to due with experience. They were NOT following procedure and more than likely checklists as well.

            And you think Sullenburger might have had a little experience? He is also a commercially rated glider pilot.

            Keep reading your internet keyboard commander!

            Sorry but it is 10:30 am here in Japan and I need to try and get a little sleep before I have to fly a really big airplane tonight for real. So we can continue this ridiculous banter tomorrow.

            Comment


            • #81
              let's take it back to just slightly off-topic. atlcrew acts the ass more time s than not. his snarky attitude is what started this tangent, so let's just leave it at that.

              brian is well able to fend for himself.

              (B, one day, you and I are gonna trade stories over several pints over in blighty)

              Comment


              • #82
                I agree!

                We should bring this thread back to trying to predict when airlines will find a way to reduce seat pitch to zero.

                And in the meantime, I'll scratch my head and try to figure out how two ATPs with thousands of flight hours massively screwing up a variety of things proves that experience always makes better pilots.
                Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                Eric Law

                Comment


                • #83
                  I am sorry BB, but I will never respect someone just for their titles, certificates or experience.

                  Originally posted by NTSB
                  Upon reaching a cruise altitude of 33,000 feet, the cabin altitude warning horn sounded. The captain [10200 hs TT, 3000 in type] noticed the right air conditioning
                  pack was off and he, along with the flight engineer [flight time unknown, but AF reservist flying C5], attempted to reinstate the pack without using a checklist. The cabin altitude
                  continued to climb to 14,000 feet at which time the warning lights illuminated and the oxygen masks deployed in the cabin. While attempting
                  to correct the cabin altitude, the flight engineer inadvertently opened the outflow valve resulting in a rapid loss of cabin pressure. The
                  captain, the flight engineer, and the lead flight attendant all subsequently became unconscious due to hypoxia. The captain had delayed
                  donning his oxygen mask. The flight engineer became unconscious after reviving the flight attendant. The junior first officer, who had only 10
                  hours of flight time in the airplane, had donned his oxygen mask when the warning horn first sounded, maintained consciousness, and was
                  able to initiate an emergency descent.
                  During the emergency descent the captain, the flight engineer, and the attendant regained
                  consciousness, and an emergency landing was made at Indianapolis, Indiana. The airplane was inspected and flight tested the next day. The
                  airplane's pressurization system functioned with no anomalies.
                  Do you know ITS? The alpha male macho captain with 1,000,000 hours of experience in everything from WWI biplanes to the MD-11 and a cigar in his mouth?

                  He once told a story: A junior FO, in one of his first airline flights. They were repositioning a plane at night. The captain decided that it was fun to fly very low, below what the airline SOPs allowed to. The FO challenges the captain and tells him to climb. The captain repeatedly denies, imposing his all-mighty authority. The FO puts his hand on the fuel shut-off valves and say "Either you go up or I go down. It's your call, captain". The junior FO, who obviously had a serious entitlement problem, was ITS.

                  Don't forget Los Rodeos. A tad more of entitlement by the FO and FE against the top-notch hot-shot lead-instructor KLM's super-senior star-Captain might have saved the all lives lost in the worst aviation accident ever.

                  Don't get me wrong: It's not that certificates, titles and experience are worthless. They are very valuable, IF they are accompanied by something else.

                  Respect is something you buy daily with your daily attitude, performance, knowledge, generosity and humbleness. It is not something that a certificate, a position and a logbook can buy by themselves. Not if it is not accompanied by the rest. Not with me anyway.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    As I catch up this AM, and see that Gabriel posts something 80% in alignment with me, I have to LOL and go ahead with this:

                    By the way, "Why?" Because it bugs me to see folks make flawed arguments.

                    Originally posted by Boeing Bobby
                    Blah, Blah, Blah, magenta line, blah blah blah...
                    Your age indeed makes you good at laying it out. But sadly, this 100 hour internet wanna be has too easy of a time seeing your declined level of understanding and thinking and tons of flaws in your arguments.

                    Originally posted by Boeing Bobby
                    I had to go to Kathmandu
                    Had to go to Kathmandu? So what. I observed two different young J-31 crews complete flights in autopilotless, magenta-line-less, steam gauge turboprops at 8000 feet inside of (not above) 200 mile diameter winter rainstorms and complete ILS approaches to ~500 ft and ~1 mile visibility. And I had to wait once while a Beech 1900 circled for the weather to improve to 200ft & 1/2 mile, and then land (again, no autopilot, no magenta line). That’s impressive.

                    I also watched one young pilot fly a Cessna 402 (steam gauges, no magenta line) through (not above) a blustery tropical storm again to roughly 500 feet & 1 mile, including managing mixture, props, cowl flaps, approach briefing and all the crap you and your partner do in your much more capable and automated 747. That also impresses me.

                    I’d like to see you try a month with Beech 1900 / J31 / Cessna 402 operator…I've heard it’s not glamorous.

                    You had to go to Katmadu?…whoop dee dee. With only 20 hours of flight time, I had (using only a map and gyrocompass and no autopilot and no magenta line) to fly to a place I had never been to before (again, by myself, without the help of your FO nor flight operations to help me plan the trip.)

                    I also think it’s pretty impressive when ATL crew navigates the New York area airspace (of course, he does have magenta lines and more importantly, is not worthy of taxiing at those nasty NY airports, so he should indeed bow at your feet).

                    Originally posted by Boeing Bobby
                    My plane weighs a zillion pounds and is bigger than your 150 and ATLCrews A-319/20/21 you have no idea what it's like to maneuver the thing.
                    Ready for the huge irony here? One of the few things a PC Flight sim game does well is simulate how little planes are more maneuverable than big ones. It didn’t take me long to figure out that I needed an extra 5 to 10 miles to intercept the ILS with the simulated 747, and that I needed to be very much on top and very much ahead to handle and flare the thing on short final…Believe it or not, I have an excellent understanding that it takes a few more miles for you to maneuver (and a few more seconds of 'anticipation on your control inputs for) your freighter than it does ATL to manage his A-319/20/21.

                    Remember respect is earned by actions. Your years and hot air blowing doesn’t earn much. (Kind of crazy that I wrote this before I read Gabe's conclusion).

                    By the way, aviation is not the only industry where you get lots of free advice and scrutiny from lay persons.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      I have paid my dues to be where I am at this stage of my career. I started in old beat up airplanes left over from WW2 with NO magenta lines, NO auto-pilots, NO GPS and NO CPDLC. So you are G.D right it pisses me off when I have to deal with some snot nose kid younger than my son that has no manners.
                      I think you are all missing BB's point. As a veteran pilot, he might not always be right but he deserves respect. So does Brian, whom he was defending. So does everyone here who has something to contribute. He is objecting to ATLCrew's lack of basic respect and manners. I'm objecting to the fact that, as a supposed crew member, ATLCrew seems to rarely have anything useful to contribute. Just snide commentary and personal attacks. I can ignore his attacks on me but it pains me to see an old hand like BB, one of our few real-world airmen on this forum, get that kind of snot-nosed treatment.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        I can ignore his attacks on me but it pains me to see an old hand like BB, one of our few real-world airmen on this forum, get that kind of snot-nosed treatment.
                        Are we sad?

                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Once again Gabriel, you have taken my post out of context and read into it what you want to see. NO WHERE in my post did I ever say that I did not take input from the younger First Officers. NO WHERE in my post did I say or infer that respect does not have to be earned. NO WHERE in my post have I said that just because you have thousands of hours and grey hair that you automatically are right 100% of the time.

                          This came about from ATLCrew’s totally off the wall and disrespectful comment to Brian, as well as his comment to me a couple of weeks ago pertaining to the American Captain that died in flight.

                          I remember ITS’s post about his ordeal with the Captain, and I have had to take an aircraft away from the same Captain twice in one day in a C-46 30+ years ago. I have also told a Captain here at Atlas many years ago as a junior First Officer that if he did not follow the procedure I was going to take the aircraft away from him.

                          Yes it is true that sometimes age breeds complacency, and with that stubbornness as well. It is also true that had the Captain of the KLM jet listened to his First Officer that accident would not have taken place. I have a very good friend here that was violated years ago for a runway incursion because he told the Captain that they were not cleared to cross an active runway. He asked the Captain for permission to call ground control for verification and the Captain told him absolutely not. ”We were cleared and don’t you dare embarrass me on the radio”. They crossed an active runway without clearance and both received violations on their record. Those will follow them both for the rest of their careers.

                          My standard brief before every departure with a new crew contains the following every time. We are all human on this flight deck, we are prone to make mistakes. If everyone does not hear the clearance, we will ask again until we are all in agreement. If anyone sees anything they don’t like shout it out loud and clear.

                          I work in an environment where language and accents can be a big problem in understanding radio transmissions. Japan, China, India, France, just to name a few. Their command of the English language is not the best and then throw in a heavy accent. Well you can just imagine.

                          My father taught me to fly as a young boy. He flew P-47’s in the Army Air Corps during WW2 and flew for his whole life. One thing he told me when I first started to fly for a living was to make sure that I learned something on every flight. If you stop learning you should get out of the airplane before you hurt yourself or someone else.


                          And Thank you Evan.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                            Once again Gabriel, you have taken my post out of context and read into it what you want to see. NO WHERE in my post did I ever say that I did not take input from the younger First Officers. NO WHERE in my post did I say or infer that respect does not have to be earned. NO WHERE in my post have I said that just because you have thousands of hours and grey hair that you automatically are right 100% of the time.

                            This came about from ATLCrew’s totally off the wall and disrespectful comment to Brian, as well as his comment to me a couple of weeks ago pertaining to the American Captain that died in flight.

                            I remember ITS’s post about his ordeal with the Captain, and I have had to take an aircraft away from the same Captain twice in one day in a C-46 30+ years ago. I have also told a Captain here at Atlas many years ago as a junior First Officer that if he did not follow the procedure I was going to take the aircraft away from him.

                            Yes it is true that sometimes age breeds complacency, and with that stubbornness as well. It is also true that had the Captain of the KLM jet listened to his First Officer that accident would not have taken place. I have a very good friend here that was violated years ago for a runway incursion because he told the Captain that they were not cleared to cross an active runway. He asked the Captain for permission to call ground control for verification and the Captain told him absolutely not. ”We were cleared and don’t you dare embarrass me on the radio”. They crossed an active runway without clearance and both received violations on their record. Those will follow them both for the rest of their careers.

                            My standard brief before every departure with a new crew contains the following every time. We are all human on this flight deck, we are prone to make mistakes. If everyone does not hear the clearance, we will ask again until we are all in agreement. If anyone sees anything they don’t like shout it out loud and clear.

                            I work in an environment where language and accents can be a big problem in understanding radio transmissions. Japan, China, India, France, just to name a few. Their command of the English language is not the best and then throw in a heavy accent. Well you can just imagine.

                            My father taught me to fly as a young boy. He flew P-47’s in the Army Air Corps during WW2 and flew for his whole life. One thing he told me when I first started to fly for a living was to make sure that I learned something on every flight. If you stop learning you should get out of the airplane before you hurt yourself or someone else.


                            And Thank you Evan.
                            BB, good to hear all that. We agree.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                              As I catch up this AM, and see that Gabriel posts something 80% in alignment with me, I have to LOL and go ahead with this:

                              By the way, "Why?" Because it bugs me to see folks make flawed arguments.



                              Your age indeed makes you good at laying it out. But sadly, this 100 hour internet wanna be has too easy of a time seeing your declined level of understanding and thinking and tons of flaws in your arguments.



                              Had to go to Kathmandu? So what. I observed two different young J-31 crews complete flights in autopilotless, magenta-line-less, steam gauge turboprops at 8000 feet inside of (not above) 200 mile diameter winter rainstorms and complete ILS approaches to ~500 ft and ~1 mile visibility. And I had to wait once while a Beech 1900 circled for the weather to improve to 200ft & 1/2 mile, and then land (again, no autopilot, no magenta line). That’s impressive.

                              I also watched one young pilot fly a Cessna 402 (steam gauges, no magenta line) through (not above) a blustery tropical storm again to roughly 500 feet & 1 mile, including managing mixture, props, cowl flaps, approach briefing and all the crap you and your partner do in your much more capable and automated 747. That also impresses me.

                              I’d like to see you try a month with Beech 1900 / J31 / Cessna 402 operator…I've heard it’s not glamorous.

                              You had to go to Katmadu?…whoop dee dee. With only 20 hours of flight time, I had (using only a map and gyrocompass and no autopilot and no magenta line) to fly to a place I had never been to before (again, by myself, without the help of your FO nor flight operations to help me plan the trip.)

                              I also think it’s pretty impressive when ATL crew navigates the New York area airspace (of course, he does have magenta lines and more importantly, is not worthy of taxiing at those nasty NY airports, so he should indeed bow at your feet).



                              Ready for the huge irony here? One of the few things a PC Flight sim game does well is simulate how little planes are more maneuverable than big ones. It didn’t take me long to figure out that I needed an extra 5 to 10 miles to intercept the ILS with the simulated 747, and that I needed to be very much on top and very much ahead to handle and flare the thing on short final…Believe it or not, I have an excellent understanding that it takes a few more miles for you to maneuver (and a few more seconds of 'anticipation on your control inputs for) your freighter than it does ATL to manage his A-319/20/21.

                              Remember respect is earned by actions. Your years and hot air blowing doesn’t earn much. (Kind of crazy that I wrote this before I read Gabe's conclusion).

                              By the way, aviation is not the only industry where you get lots of free advice and scrutiny from lay persons.
                              You just dream the dream, I live it, and get paid big $$ to do it. And so as you read your 35 years worth of Flying magazines, I am sipping a cold one here in Narita. Tomorrow I will fly to Hong Kong and have 3 days off to enjoy the local food and "hospitality". You will NEVER know!

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                                You just dream the dream, I live it, and get paid big $$ to do it. And so as you read your 35 years worth of Flying magazines, I am sipping a cold one here in Narita. Tomorrow I will fly to Hong Kong and have 3 days off to enjoy the local food and "hospitality". You will NEVER know!
                                Somehow your posts dont's seem compatible with each other. It's not that the cold words are contradictory. Rather it is your attitude (or what I perceive of it) what is contradictory.

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                                Comment

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