Seat Recline Wars and airline stupidity

[brianw999]

Reclining seats are a problem especially when there is little legroom in the first place. I am 6 feet tall and have seriously arthritic knees. On a flight that had my knees wedged firmly apart the passenger in front slammed their seat back into my knees trapping me in my seat and in great pain. I asked them to move the seat forward but they refused saying that my pain was my problem, they had the right to recline their seat. I was literally, physically trapped in my seat unable to get up so I called the FA. They immediately saw the problem and asked the passenger to move the seat to free me from the seat and give me a chance to rearrange my knees so that they would not be trapped. I was still in extreme pain and the other passenger recognised that but still wouldn't move.

And that was his big mistake. He had now admitted that he was deliberately causing me pain.

I requested that the FA get the captain to call ahead and request a police attendance on landing to allow me to press charges of assault and causing actual bodily harm (we were landing in the UK). Now, I must admit that I was trying it on a bit here but to my astonishment the FA agreed with me and moved to go to the cockpit. Arsehole passenger immediately changed his tune, moved his seat to release me and was almost crying with his apologies. The FA moved me to a premium economy seat with more legroom. I requested that they did not go any further with the matter.
That's not the end of it though. On arrival at Gatwick passengers were asked to remain in their seats as the police were boarding the aircraft to speak to a passenger. Arsehole was removed in tears to the police station for what the officers described as " a little chat". He was released 5 hours later. The airline later contacted me to advise me that the passenger concerned had been given a lifetime ban on that airline.
Why was this action taken despite my request not to take any further action ? Well, I believe that it was because during boarding I had identified myself as a paramedic and that I was happy to assist the crew in the event of any medical incident.

Sometimes.....there is a God.

[elaw]

Actually if you ask me the airline should have some liability in that case.

They sold both you and the person in front of you seats that, when one person (the guy in front) takes an action the airline authorizes and encourages pax to do, another person (you) gets injured. Clearly in this case, the fact you were injured is not due to an unusual characteristic that you possess... being 6 feet tall isn't exactly unusual and neither is having arthritis!

[3WE]

Actually if you ask me the airline should have some liability in that case.

Ummm...yeah, I don't think justice was served particularly well in the case Brian describes.

The guy paid for his seat, and seats recline and I'm thinking he's got a right to recline his seat.

I'd ask if you did anything to inform the crew ahead of time that you had special needs?

Initially, I don't see that the person did anything intentional to cause you harm...and it would appear he did (eventually) comply with the flight crew.

Indeed he's guilty of being momentarily inconsiderate of your request, but when traveling by air, it is indeed a passenger vs. passenger and your rights to overhead bin space, the seat you paid for, and inadequate legroom is something passenger's are left to "fight over" and work out themselves. (One of the other wonderful new norms (in addition to overhead bin space with goes to those lucky enough to board early) is families, not paying extra to sit together and then asking folks to switch (and playing on sympathies) The wife is still livid when a man asked our 18 YO daughter to move away from us so he could sit next to his 20 YO daughter...(Since the daughter was 18, she was more than happy to ditch mom and dad- LOL)).

Back on topic, the airline's seat pitch and your failure to request special seating are the root cause of the problem here and the dude (A-hole or not) did not deserve a visit to the police station for momentarily standing up for something that is his assumed right.

And, as I keep saying and no one acknowledges, the airlines need to be clear that you have paid and have a right to recline, OR lock the seats upright and be done with it! (And if you are Gabe or Brian and can't have a seat reclined, it's your responsibility to inform the flight crew (and the person in front of you)...your responsibility because for the vast majority of the 70 years of air travel, seats are routinely reclined!).

[elaw]

I also feel that the treatment the other passenger received was excessively harsh.

However I don't agree that Brian has "special needs" that he should have been responsible for addressing!

I don't have statistics at hand, but I'm sure there are billions of other people on this planet that are his height or taller. To me that means his height is not a "special need" that needs special accommodation, it's "normal" and the aircraft should be able to accommodate it without a special request.

[Evan]

Deregulation. Shrinking seat pitch. Non-shrinking public. Pax left to war it out. Flights diverted due to pax warring it out. Where did all this begin?

Oh, right... deregulation.

[Gabriel]

What happened to that that your rights end where those of thy neighbor begin?

You have the right to recline your set. You don't have the right to intentionally hurt me in the process of exercising your rights.

The man didn't know that he was hurting Brian, until he knew. His right to recline his seat (or to refuse to un-recline it) ended in that instant. (that little point... you know what it is).

In the same way that walking on the sidewalk (because you paid your taxes and have the right to do it) don't give you the right to bump on me because I am standing on the sidewalk where you have the right to walk.

At 6' 4", I am really extraordinary tall but, with a percentile of 99%, that means that your average narrowbody flight will have one or 2 guys as tall or taller than me and 2 to 4 for the widebodies. The airlines should be FORCED to take that into account. They have seats that naturally have extra legroom (they also have premium economy but they call premium economy to any seat with extra legroom even if it is a standard seat in the back of the plane only that on an emergency or bulkhead). I ALWAYS advise them of my sort of abnormal height, since the moment I buy the tickets (if I do it over the phone). And of course during check in (even if I did on-line check in I always go to the check in counter) and again in the pre-boarding counter. I found that airlines are almost always willing to reseat you in a long-legs seat at no extra charge ONLY in the pre-boarding counter, after the check-in has finished, if any such seat remains available.

But the airlines KNOW the distribution of height in the population, the KNOW the chances that people with a femur longer than the seat pitch will show up. They should offer persons seat that are compatible with their height. They have those seats, they just give them to the first person that asks for them, instead of prioritize those who really need them.

And, let me be very clear here: No, I am not talking about comfort (pay more if you want more comfort). I am talking about habitability and geometry here.

When I am sitting in a seat and my knees are already hardly pressed against your back seat before you ever attempted to recline the seat. You are not going to recline the seat. (this little point...). And whether you have the right or I want to let you has no significance whatsoever. My femur will not let go (ok, if you push really hard it might, but then I will get really angry with you).

Dramatizing a bit (ok, more than a bit), it's like claiming your right to be taken from A to B after the plane has been hit by a missile and is falling in pieces from the sky. The rights are not infallible, especially not when compared with Geometry and Physics.

On the other hand, I never ever refused to un-recline my seat a bit when the pax behind me asked me to do so for legroom issues, and not even when they asked me to do so for more comfort and space during the meal (which happened more often). We live in a society where one needs to take into account their own rights, the rights of the others, and, why not, a bit of civility and courtesy so we can co-exist in harmony, or at least try to do so.

[3WE]

...However I don't agree that Brian has "special needs" that he should have been responsible for addressing!...

I agree that Brian's stature is not a special need...

But if Brian's arthritis cannot allow the guy in front to recline his seat (which is very commonly done), then that is a special need.

I kind of feel it's my right to recline: I paid my fare, my seat reclines, my seat has always reclined and hell yes, I put up with the person in front of me reclining their seat...this is the way it has always been!

All that being said, I re re re re repeat my comment that the Airlines need to take control of this situation...tell passengers exactly how many inches of leg room they get and that Gabe and Brian are SOL if they need more. And passengers are allowed to recline...OR, eliminate the recline feature.

But no, let's keep kind of silent and let the passengers fight it out for themselves. (thanks for repeating that Evan!), and then send a dude to the police station when you set the seat pitch and give the dude a reclining seat! (Yes, we agree on the final bold, and I appreciate the discussion.)

[3WE]

...We live in a society where one needs to take into account their own rights, the rights of the others, and, why not, a bit of civility and courtesy so we can co-exist in harmony, or at least try to do so...

Everyone is allowed an official roller-board suitcase AND a backpack...

Guess what, there isn't adequate space for that in the overhead bins (nor adequate space for a normal load where not everyone has a full compliment of carry-ons).

So, before you ever leave the gate, folks are getting screwed out of the overhead bin next to their seats, are screwing over other folks as they find other places to stash stuff, trying to screw folks by not putting stuff under the seat that's supposed to go under the seat...

...before you ever sit down, the screw-each-other behavior is happening (fully supported by the airlines policy). Fight it out amongst yourselves.

...and if 'your' overhead bin space is already taken and THEN you're told you can't recline...

Maybe you should pay $25 and check your bags...yeah, great then they can lose your important medication, beat the crap out of your bag, and make you wait another 45 minutes at the baggage carousel...

I don't disagree that it's nice to treat your fellow man decently, but the whole act of flying is a screw-over exercise...an exercise the begins before you ever take your seat...just like the AA FA incident, the screwed over passengers start screwing over the FA's so they start screwing over the passengers...

[Gabriel]

But no, let's keep kind of silent and let the passengers fight it out for themselves. (thanks for repeating that Evan!), and then send a dude to the police station when he refuses to un-recline its seat a bit when he had been informed that the pax behind was trapped and in pain and a flight crew instructed the guy to un-recline!

Fixed.

And, if you read my post, you'll see that I am blaming the airline too. Blame is one of these things that you don't have any less when you share it. So the fact that the airline is at fault too doesn't diminish blame of the guy.

[Gabriel]

...and today's interwebs 10-19-2015 relay a story of a man choking a woman trying to recline her seat.

A link perhaps?

[Evan]

But the airlines KNOW the distribution of height in the population, the KNOW the chances that people with a femur longer than the seat pitch will show up. They should offer persons seat that are compatible with their height. They have those seats, they just give them to the first person that asks for them, instead of prioritize those who really need them.

Where have you been? They SELL those seats online now to squeeze a little more revenue out of economy class. You can buy those seats when making the online reservation if they are still available, By the time you get to check in, they've probably given them as a perk to some 'SilverWIngs' member or some stupid shit. That means you have to pay more than I do for the same space in front of your knees, but then again, you get the perks of being 6'4". I'd gladly pay for that.

Those seats should be prioritized for the longer-legged species, I agree. But, guess what? They can make a few more bucks selling it to a 5'4" tech industry middle-manager while your suffering costs them nothing. It's simple deregulation arithmetic. Whatever problems this might cause can be fought out among the passengers and the FA's, none of which can reach the company boardroom. Let the poor things in economy class fight over the crumbs. They're all just common savages anyway.

[3WE]

A link perhaps?

Southwest airlines, last Sunday.

Update (a brief Interweb search this morning): http://news.yahoo.com/man-chokes-wom...BfMQRzZWMDc3I-

[3WE]

Fixed.

And, if you read my post, you'll see that I am blaming the airline too. Blame is one of these things that you don't have any less when you share it. So the fact that the airline is at fault too doesn't diminish blame of the guy.

Your fix is inaccurate...had the right to recline and only momentarily refused to sit up.

The momentary refusal balanced against the common situation that you are allowed to recline tends to nullify this being criminal.

[TeeVee]

Deregulation. Shrinking seat pitch. Non-shrinking public. Pax left to war it out. Flights diverted due to pax warring it out. Where did all this begin?

Oh, right... deregulation.

sorry, you're wrong here. deregulation occurred a loooooooong time before seat wars. the real culprit is corporate greed and wall street turning every publicly traded company into their personal whores.

i've flown nearly 1.5 million miles as a passenger and i can tel you without any reservation whatsoever that the disgusting state of aircraft interiors came about in the last 12 years. prior to that, while econ seats were not barca loungers, they were light years more comfortable and seat pitch was several inches greater.

yes, airlines are businesses. but i in no way believe that they would not be profitable if seat pitch was set at more reasonable 33 inches. what does that translate to in say, aa's 737-800? currently rows 16-30 have 31". to add 2 more inches to each row you need 30" (15x2). so they would likely have to lose one row of seats--6 chairs. frankly, if aa's profit turns on 6 seats per aircraft, they are not a viable company.

nevertheless the powers that be obviously are more interested in $1200-2000 more per flight that they are in our comfort. granted, for aa that equates to about $13,400,000.00 per day (6700 flights per day but that number includes eagle...)

[Gabriel]

Where have you been? They SELL those seats online now to squeeze a little more revenue out of economy class. You can buy those seats when making the online reservation if they are still available, By the time you get to check in, they've probably given them as a perk to some 'SilverWIngs' member or some stupid shit. That means you have to pay more than I do for the same space in front of your knees, but then again, you get the perks of being 6'4". I'd gladly pay for that.

Those seats should be prioritized for the longer-legged species, I agree. But, guess what? They can make a few more bucks selling it to a 5'4" tech industry middle-manager while your suffering costs them nothing. It's simple deregulation arithmetic. Whatever problems this might cause can be fought out among the passengers and the FA's, none of which can reach the company boardroom. Let the poor things in economy class fight over the crumbs. They're all just common savages anyway.

Evan, what you say is right today. But seat pitch has been a pain for a couple dozens of years and only the inte last ones they started with this economy seat BS. For decades the price of a coach bulkhead or coach emergency exit or coach aisle was the same than for a coach middle of the plane middle of the 5-abreast block, and they still didn't prioritize the long legs.

I absolutely refuse to pay more for being tall because it is against my principles. What's next? Paying more for being a nigger or a hispanic? Again, this is not a matter of comfort. I have no problem to pay a premium for extra comfort, in equal conditions with the rest of the pax. I've paid for checked bag even when it was within the legal limit for carry-on because I had 2 stops of some hours each and I preferred to see my bag only at the destination. Once I've even paid to upgrade to business. This is not the case because, for the same money, you get one inch of free play in front of your knees and I get one inch of interference in fron of mine, as you described.

Many times I get a long-legs seat at no extra charge just before boarding (very few times, at the check in counter). Many times I don't. For those times, the person in front of me will not recline their seat, and not a decision I make, it is not my will, it just is what it is. My knees and your back cannot occupy the same region of space at the same point in time. I am sorry for him and I would hope that he was equally sorry for me.