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How to Lose your Best Customers. or, F&$% Off AA

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  • #16
    Just as another example....I mentioned the "Voluntary Denied Boarding" (VDB) schemers in the post above. There are people, who go around trying to get bumped off flights in order to collect travel vouchers. There are many sites (like 'Expert Flyer') that will show you the current 'loads' of various flights by fare class. These folks will purposely search out flights that are oversold. They will then buy a fully refundable ticket and head to the airport hoping to volunteer to get bumped.

    There are even sites where fellow schemers will post info like "United gate agents in Kansas City will start by offering $300 vouchers, but if you wait, they will go up to $600". If it looks like the flight will not need to bump anyone, the VDB folks will just get their refundable ticket refunded and go on home and try again another day.....but the really good ones rack up thousands of dollars in travel vouchers annually. Don't be surprised to see changes to denied boarding rules as the airlines try to stay one step ahead.

    There was big news last week as Delta changed their frequent flier program from a mileage based system to a 'spend' system. Basically, frequent fliers and corporate travel offices learned to buy the cheapest tickets they could and still maintain the elite levels that brought all the nice perks. Sometimes this meant doing 'mileage runs' at the end of the year by buying really cheap fares to places you had no interest in going just to boost your mileage count to keep your status (it was common to see lots of folks travelling on DEC 29 on itineraries like LGA-DTW-DEN-ATL-LGA....all in the same day). Delta has now switched the system to how much you spend.....not how far you fly. And from a business standpoint, it makes much more sense, but the old frequent fliers are howling about it because they won't earn as many miles as they used to purchasing deep dsicount fares. Think about it....does McDonalds want the the guy who comes in every day and buys a single item off the dollar menu or do they want the guy who comes in once a week and buys the latest expensive sandwich and shake and 4 happy meals?

    You will likely see the other airlines switch to a 'spend' type system as well.
    Last edited by Vnav; 2014-03-06, 17:31.
    Parlour Talker Extraordinaire

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      Your attempt to side step my question failed.
      Why on Earth would I do THAT? I enjoy your questions, lol.

      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      Based on what, you ask? Based on 5 years ago you could fly standby for free versus $500 now.
      You COMPLETELY missed what I was saying. You're comparing passenger allotments from years ago, to today, under the apparent presumption that market conditions (self-imposed by the airlines/pax or otherwise) remain static... and I'm not sure you even realize that you're doing that, or why it makes no sense.
      Us, lighting a living horse on fire:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH2_Q3oJPeU

      Check it out!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Vnav View Post
        The reason 'free standby' has gone away is that consumers learned to game the system.....just as they've learned to work the system for things like voluntary denied boarding, weekend stays, hidden city ticketing, bereavement fares, mileage runs, etc.

        If your travel habits require lots of flexibility, don't buy the non-refundable fares.....every airline sells refundable tickets. Furthermore, most airlines also waive change fees for their upper tier frequent fliers.
        THIS!

        ....and in the days post economic recession, there's no way airlines can justify not being proactive in stemming this sort of thing. Same for "mileage running" etc.
        Us, lighting a living horse on fire:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH2_Q3oJPeU

        Check it out!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
          like every airline, AA has its issues. none are perfect or even close to it. for every horror story there are ten good ones. and amazingly, vice versa.
          You're right. No one is perfect. AA has enough issues to talk about - Long-standing stain of rude cabin crews, the influx of US (and their attitudes toward customer service, loyalty and their 'amazing' fare schedule - not to mention the new CEO), and a generally complex operation (try flying out of MIA on AA and not speaking Spanish, or the two-mile hike at DFW, or, hell, Chicago and the perpetual weather delays), and a large, convoluted and un-intelligent customer service apparatus (which, to be fair, I have rarely found a large, well-working, well-functioning one - and which is one that is far better than some of its competitors. DL, oh DL!)

          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
          I've been a loyal aa customer for over 20 years. over 1,000,000 flight miles with them.
          I may be wrong, but I think that you've said before that you are an AAdvantage member. Give the AAdvantage reps. a call. They are awesome (at least with me, and 'fly once in a while', bottom of the rung status). Horrible to say, but as a regular customer - dealing with their customer service is messy. Use any advantage (haha, pun!) that you have, and if once you get to speak to Gold/Diamond support you're set.

          Explain what you feel, explain that you see this trend - and realize, there is very little if anything that the person on the other end of that line can do to instantly relieve you of your feelings. Let them notate it, but also they may have quite cool ways of fixing a few of the issues for you. Case in point, I called them a few days ago about a flight to POS that is upcoming, and the guy explained how I made a mistake, and fixed the error (the departure dates) and even waived the increase for me. True, the mistake was mostly mine, but he was willing to help. I spoke to the manager, explained my case, and got what I needed. Yes, there was a fee there - yes, I was pissed, but I had no other choice but to try.

          If all else fails, then take it to facebook, or twitter. They are usually very responsive to negative press. Get your friends to notice/like the link and you'll get them to see that you are being seen. It might get you some resolution on this issue.

          If you're not yet an AAdvantage member - call them and ask if they can retro-actively add points/events. Call to sign up...

          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
          They have gotten so f*$%n crazy with their fees though it makes me sick. $497 to change the time on a return flight of a $490 round trip ticket? really?! what other industry could get away with such hideous bullshit? $200 change fee for domestic flights? $300 for international? industry leading most expensive bullshit.
          Ok, I see the logic. The fees are ridiculous - but only if you relate them to other goods and services that are like them. In other words, apples for apples. There are very few goods/services/providers that do this. I know that it's not going to make the pill easier to swallow, but understand how and when airlines are operating. In many cases, the only way that an airline like AA can make the numerous and premium services (i.e. a higher cost structure) is by operating at a precariously slim profit, or a loss in some cases. When you are booking the lowest rate (which is being costed at the same or lower than most Low Cost Carriers - i.e. by definition, a low cost structure), AA is going to offer a rate, and hope to get you. For most passengers (and I understand the un-ethical nature of this - always overbooking flights as a standard practice, but charging for those that need a change), this is never even a consideration. They purchase a service, and specifically prepare for that service. I am sure that you did that same thing.

          Something unexpected, and tragic comes up. You can't be held to the same agreement, and here the airline shafts you. But, understand that this is a rare situation for the airline, and truth be told - for you as well. The people that you are going to be speaking to (when you get to the appropriate agent) may make your situation feel trivial and may seem un-sympathetic. Consider their situation. The airline has made an un-ethical, and profitable system - and they enforce it by the defaults of your agreement, and worse; no upper manager really deals with it because they pay entry-level agents to do nothing but take the complaints. Be patient, be nice, understand your surroundings and take the best steps forward. I am not saying that the airline is right. I am not saying that you do not have the power to chose someone else (though that is a rough call, because in your case you only really have AA and TACA, right?) but I think that you chose AA the first time because it has always been the best choice. Now, put their system to work for you. Believe me, you'll find that they're not so quick to let you go either, especially as an AAdvantage or long-standing customer.

          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
          and AA is not alone. all the other majors charge similar "fees." and some of the little bastards are catching up.
          Spirit! SPIRIT! SSSPPPPIIIIRIT! I think that I had to retake E-Math in order to figure out how much it was going to cost me to get to the gate. But, you're right - it's already an issue. However, if no one in the industry is doing the ethical, humane thing - of offering a consumer-considered 'low' fare and no fees - then it's not possible for anyone to offer it. They all know that the first person to do so will capture the market - but I think that it correlates to another truth - no one is doing it now. No matter where you go, this is how it is being done. Not saying that it is right, but it is everywhere.

          Now, there is another issue at play here. AA does offer the fare, with the ability to make changes or cancellations. With each consideration there is a price increase. In other words, the airline is dictating to you what they see that ability as being worth in a hypothetical (or real) market where you were competing with other passengers that demand the same services - a flight, with options of dates, or the ability to refund if not used. The price is higher, and in most cases - significantly. It does come with perks, and at a cost. AA has done a great job (and yes, even an industry leading job) at trying to simplify it alot. They took on a challenge of incorporating a lower cost clientele well, early on. Some other competitors did not do that, and look where they are now. With so many people coming through, the trends became apparent. People like you voiced concerns and got these actions. It was a move that not many other people even felt compelled to do, as inaction would only ensure the same, if not more revenue in the future. So, they actually did try to bridge that gap as well, which was another attempt to reach you as a consumer.

          Something to consider - if I were the passenger, and this happened to me almost anywhere else in the world, this would be the least of my issues. I am not saying this to diminsh what you are going through, but at least we live in a system that is one of the best in the world.

          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
          Screw the free market. it's time to RE-regulate these assholes!
          Now, you must understand that under regulation - these things were much, much more expensive right. It's the principle that I spoke with above. The reason why the airlines did what they did (offered some of the World's finest, fastest, travel) was beacuse they offered tickets at what it was assumed that operation would cost. We aren't asking that now of our airlines. We want to get there, fast and cheap. Something had to give.

          Sadly, for more than 95 percent of passengers out there - there is no complication. They buy, they fly. In that system - it's easy to keep the costs low. Everyone does what they need to, whey they need to. When things don't go that way, the airline has tipped the markets and scales to come out in their favor. It's a reality of the world we live in. It's neither right, nor wholly ethical, but it is an organization, and it works when we need it to. Work with the CSR reps at AA, and see what they can do to help. Leverage your past and your status with them, to see if you can get a more appropriate level of help for your case.

          Hope that it all works out.
          Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

          Comment


          • #20
            i'm not getting into a pissing match with anyone over this, especially since i probably fly more than most of the non-pilots here. but let's get a few things straight.

            1. i've been exec platinum or platinum on aa for 7 straight years. NO CHANGE FEES ARE WAIVED--EVER.

            2. face the facts, shit happens and you have to change a flight. the impetus for this post was that my sister had an accident and had to change flights due to treatment. i pled my case to aa and got zilch, zero nada. so, f*ck aa, i simply booked her a one way trip for $35 less than the change fee and no additional fare. in the process, they pissed off a pretty good customer.

            3. concorde boy, who is probably an airline exec making up these fees, should spend less time defending absolutely baseless, gouging fees.

            4. costs of a passenger changing his own flight on line? ZERO!!! change fee for ANY flight, no matter the fare? $200 domestic. so you could buy a $200 r/t ticket, change just the return leg, and end up spending $400+ for the trip, the + being the actual fare difference.

            back when fees were normal, e.g., $50 change fee, i never bitched. but now? out of f*ckin control.

            oh, and concorde boy--defender of all that is evil--how is it that SWA charges no change fees and manages to be one of the only profitable US airline?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              concorde boy, who is probably an airline exec
              Ah yes, because spending time explaining the impetus behind simple financial concepts would totally be in my job description.


              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              should spend less time defending absolutely baseless, gouging fees.
              To play along: you seem to be forgetting that a corporate executive's sole objective is to maximize earnings for his/her shareholders...

              ...not make you feel better about the inability to afford an available standard of travel, that you (for whatever reason) believe that you "deserve" without paying the market-determined prices for, bundled or otherwise.

              Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
              and manages to be one of the only profitable US airline?
              Considering that Delta, American, United, USAirways, Frontier/Republic, Spirit, Alaska, etc are all currently profitable, on both a quarterly and yearly basis...... um, how exactly is WN "one of the only?"
              Us, lighting a living horse on fire:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH2_Q3oJPeU

              Check it out!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ConcordeBoy View Post
                Considering that Delta, American, United, USAirways, Frontier/Republic, Spirit, Alaska, etc are all currently profitable, on both a quarterly and yearly basis...... um, how exactly is WN "one of the only?"
                Well, they're the only ones with purple airplanes, so they must be unique in every other regard as well...

                Comment


                • #23
                  ^Not to derail the main topic of discussion here, but having flown Southwest multiple times now I can tell you I have absolutely no problems with it. Its customer service is one of the best out there, friendly agents/flight attendants (both, on ground and in the cabin), in my opinion, it's definitely not "cattle class", the airline is very efficient, gets you from point A to point B and does the job pretty well. I have a better example of cattle-like treatment-try Lufthansa's boarding at FRA or AFs boarding at CDG. Now that's cattle-like treatment; no organization whatsoever, no announcements, nothing. Board "as you like", with people cutting in line and acting haphazardly. And yes, the 737s are more comfortable than some of the widebodies out there.

                  For the record, I do not work for WN or in the airline industry, nor am I a spokesperson for WN. A common man can actually happen to like an airline.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    In Deutschland gibt es noch ganz andere Viehtransporter.

                    In English: Afaik, it depends on when and where you start your flight. EDDF is not known for "cute, small and regional" (58 mio pax in 2013).

                    And a LH-B744 still provides three classes. So, it also depends on how less you are willing to pay for a transatlantic flight...
                    In general, LH flights are not expensive.

                    But if you have to fly today and you need the right to leave the a/c 5 minutes before t/o, then this might be the (financial) difference...
                    The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
                    The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                    And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                    This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ConcordeBoy View Post
                      Ah yes, because spending time explaining the impetus behind simple financial concepts would totally be in my job description.



                      To play along: you seem to be forgetting that a corporate executive's sole objective is to maximize earnings for his/her shareholders...

                      ...not make you feel better about the inability to afford an available standard of travel, that you (for whatever reason) believe that you "deserve" without paying the market-determined prices for, bundled or otherwise.


                      Considering that Delta, American, United, USAirways, Frontier/Republic, Spirit, Alaska, etc are all currently profitable, on both a quarterly and yearly basis...... um, how exactly is WN "one of the only?"
                      and SWA is the only one making a profit WITHOUT gouging its customers. that is the point.

                      i can afford to travel in any class i feel like. and as for change fees, i have insurance to cover them. my complaint has nothing to do with ability to pay. in fact, in this case, i wasn't the passenger.

                      change fees are not market determined priced. they are opportunistically priced to take advantage of people when life happens. yes, SOME may change for the hell of it. however, many changes are not voluntary. it's the bending people over and sticking a 12 foot pole up their asses that pisses me off.

                      yeah, we know all about how corporate asshats earn their keep. but there is also something called corporate responsibility. something else called decency. here, agood lie from aa's website: "We continuously strive to make a positive impact in the lives of our customers, employees and shareholders, and in the communities and environments where we live, work and play."

                      and here's a good joke: "Customers - We seek to earn customer loyalty by consistently exceeding our customers' expectations." RIGHT! by bending them over when an accident happens and force them to pay $529 to change a $443 ticket--the only change was the day of travel.

                      once upon a time, in a world that is all but gone, companies truly cared about their reputations and how the public and their customers viewed them. smart business was about building a loyal customer base, treating them well, rewarding them with good service and being paid back tenfold in lots of repeat business. your business grew by recommendation as well as marketing, which is now nothing more than fantasy and outright lies.

                      i've flown over 2 million miles--over 1 million on aa alone. i've watched the industry change--mostly for the worse--over the past 20 years and it makes me sick. know what it is? wall street.

                      public companies and the asshats that run them have allowed themselves to become slaves/whores to wall street. service doesn't matter. reputation aint worth shit. repeat business is not a goal to achieve. and safety is probably nothing more than one more check box. all to make the douche bags on wall street happier, fatter, and fill their pockets more so they can but bigger yachts that they never use.

                      but worse than all of the foregoing is that they have people like you convinced that it's all ok. that forsaking decency for a few extra bucks is ok. that it's ok for bereavement fares to be the highest priced full fare ticket--cuz folks have figured it all out and now lie to get a cheaper ticket.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        and SWA is the only one making a profit WITHOUT gouging its customers. that is the point.
                        The funny thing is, you ARE still paying for all these things on WN... you just don't seem to realize it.

                        1) Nothing is "free." Ever.
                        2) Have you ever actually researched WN's avg 14 and 21 day fares, compared to the Big3?
                        Based on your posts, I'm guessing you haven't. You might be surprised at what you find.


                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        i can afford to travel in any class i feel like . . . my complaint has nothing to do with ability to pay.
                        So, you CAN afford it... but you're just too cheap to pay up, and would rather sit there and whine about it?

                        Then congrats, you've discovered the one thing that would make them care even LESS! hahaha


                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        change fees are not market determined priced. they are opportunistically priced to take advantage of people when life happens.
                        Um, that's what market determination **IS**

                        You (for whatever reason) seem to believe it's based on what most people would want to pay, or find convenient.

                        [[buzz]] WRONG!

                        It's based on what most people will pay, regardless of the situation in most instances. And a few billion bucks in ancillaries later, clearly shows that to be the case.


                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        yes, SOME may change for the hell of it. however, many changes are not voluntary. it's the bending people over and sticking a 12 foot pole up their asses that pisses me off.
                        It's what they asked for. In action if not in words.


                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        yeah, we know all about how corporate asshats earn their keep. but there is also something called corporate responsibility.
                        Yeah, and that responsibility is to their shareholders (is there an echo in here???)

                        Their only responsibility to you, is getting you from A to B in one piece, and reasonably on time.

                        Don't believe me? ...then try a negligence tort against standard operation, claiming that they have some further obligation to you than that-- and tell me how far you get. Seriously, give it a whack.

                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        something else called decency.
                        You get what you pay for. Fair's fair.
                        What could be more decent than fairness?


                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        once upon a time, in a world that is all but gone, companies truly cared about their reputations and how the public and their customers viewed them.
                        And those customers PAID A LOT MORE for that level of service back then, than anything remotely resembling what (the average traveler) pays now.

                        The cost of aircraft acquisition has gone up. The cost of crewing has gone up. The cost of fuel has gone WAY up.

                        Yet the prices of fares have stayed the same now that they were 40yrs ago. Something had to give.


                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        i've flown over 2 million miles--over 1 million on aa alone.
                        ~yawwwn

                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        service doesn't matter.
                        Because people generally won't pay for it.

                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        reputation aint worth shit.
                        Because people don't generally care about it, they'll just go for the lowest fare.

                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        repeat business is not a goal to achieve.
                        Indeed. NK has the lowest repeat business of any large US airline, and yet they have higher profit margins than even DL and WN, and they've beaten WN in profit margin nearly every quarter for the last several years.


                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        and safety is probably nothing more than one more check box.
                        Huh?


                        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                        but worse than all of the foregoing is that they have people like you convinced that it's all ok.
                        Probbbbably, because it **IS** okay, lol.

                        1) our airlines are making more money now than they have in the last 15 years, they can finally start to invest in their hard-product
                        2) more people are flying now than at any point in history, and most importantly of all, to this conversation...
                        3) ...any level of service you want, is there for your enjoyment; all you have to do is _______ for it!

                        (go ahead, fill in the blank, it's not hard)
                        Us, lighting a living horse on fire:
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH2_Q3oJPeU

                        Check it out!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                          and here's a good joke: "Customers - We seek to earn customer loyalty by consistently exceeding our customers' expectations." RIGHT! by bending them over when an accident happens and force them to pay $529 to change a $443 ticket--the only change was the day of travel.
                          In this case you're wrong! You expected the fee to be about $50 to change a flight, but instead it was more like $500. So they DID exceed your expectations!
                          Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                          Eric Law

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ConcordeBoy View Post
                            The funny thing is, you ARE still paying for all these things on WN... you just don't seem to realize it.

                            1) Nothing is "free." Ever.
                            2) Have you ever actually researched WN's avg 14 and 21 day fares, compared to the Big3?
                            Based on your posts, I'm guessing you haven't. You might be surprised at what you find.



                            So, you CAN afford it... but you're just too cheap to pay up, and would rather sit there and whine about it?

                            Then congrats, you've discovered the one thing that would make them care even LESS! hahaha



                            Um, that's what market determination **IS**

                            You (for whatever reason) seem to believe it's based on what most people would want to pay, or find convenient.

                            [[buzz]] WRONG!

                            It's based on what most people will pay, regardless of the situation in most instances. And a few billion bucks in ancillaries later, clearly shows that to be the case.



                            It's what they asked for. In action if not in words.



                            Yeah, and that responsibility is to their shareholders (is there an echo in here???)

                            Their only responsibility to you, is getting you from A to B in one piece, and reasonably on time.

                            Don't believe me? ...then try a negligence tort against standard operation, claiming that they have some further obligation to you than that-- and tell me how far you get. Seriously, give it a whack.


                            You get what you pay for. Fair's fair.
                            What could be more decent than fairness?



                            And those customers PAID A LOT MORE for that level of service back then, than anything remotely resembling what (the average traveler) pays now.

                            The cost of aircraft acquisition has gone up. The cost of crewing has gone up. The cost of fuel has gone WAY up.

                            Yet the prices of fares have stayed the same now that they were 40yrs ago. Something had to give.



                            ~yawwwn


                            Because people generally won't pay for it.


                            Because people don't generally care about it, they'll just go for the lowest fare.


                            Indeed. NK has the lowest repeat business of any large US airline, and yet they have higher profit margins than even DL and WN, and they've beaten WN in profit margin nearly every quarter for the last several years.



                            Huh?



                            Probbbbably, because it **IS** okay, lol.

                            1) our airlines are making more money now than they have in the last 15 years, they can finally start to invest in their hard-product
                            2) more people are flying now than at any point in history, and most importantly of all, to this conversation...
                            3) ...any level of service you want, is there for your enjoyment; all you have to do is _______ for it!

                            (go ahead, fill in the blank, it's not hard)

                            ok i'm done trying to convince a drone. go believe what you want. in any event, you're probably a person that flies three times per year, saves every penny to do so, and would die if you had to change your plans.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The funny thing is, you ARE still paying for all these things on WN...
                              I do agree with this. Southwest (and other airlines, save for a few like Allegiant and Spirit) cover everything in the ticket price, regardless of whether or not you want it. But here's the deal - on many occasions, I have searched pricing for flights and while it is true now that many a time, Southwest's fares are just about as high as the others' fares (in some cases a bit higher), the others charge $15-$25 for the first checked bag, pretty much eliminating the price difference. So unless you're not checking bags, and wanting to save as much as possible (and not fly NK or G4) Southwest still wins out in my books. And coupled with its efficient service and and freindly crews (and a no-nonsense attitude), I wouldn't think twice about flying it, even if it meant paying a bit higher fare in the end.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                One thing that seems to get little mention here is that along with being profitable and having good prices, Southwest treats their people better - in particular their pilots' salaries are higher than almost all the other passenger airlines.

                                Making your pax feel like they're being nickel-and-dimed may be "harmless", but IMHO making your pilots feel that way could have safety implications...

                                And just for the record, no I'm not an employee of Southwest (or any other airline), just a happy customer.
                                Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                                Eric Law

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