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  • Accident avoided despite the efforts of the crew

    Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation


    The aircraft crossed the extended runway centerline at about 3.1nm before the runway threshold at 1000 feet MSL, the crew did not have the runway in sight. The controller cleared the aircraft to land on runway 21, the captain advised the first officer of his decision to land despite the first officer mentioning that they did not have the runway in sight nor did they have any indication of the localizer or glidepath. After crossing the extended runway center line the first officer noticed the course deflection indicator had come alive and advised the captain to turn left. The captain made a rapid deflection of both ailerons and rudder to the left and a rapid nose down input causing the aircraft to enter about 50 degrees of left bank, 19 degrees nose down in a side slip with rapidly accelerating sink rate. The GPWS activated alarms because of the excessive bank angle, excessive deviation below glide path and excessive terrain closure rate. The aircraft reached about 5000 feet per minute rate of descent at about 300 feet AGL. The controller saw the aircraft disappear behind rising terrain and trees. The GPWS activated "Terrain! Terrain! Whoop! Whoop! Pull Up!" The captain did not have the runway in sight and did not react initially to the GPWS alerts, he rather appeared to be following the first officer's guidance. The captain recovered the aircraft at 320 feet MSL or 150 feet AGL, according to Finland's AIB two seconds prior to impact and 2.7nm before the runway threshold. Rather than initiating a go-around the captain increased altitude only a little and continued the approach until visual contact with the runway was established with all 4 PAPI lights showing red. The aircraft, despite the efforts of the crew, subsequently landed safely on runway 21.
    (Comment in red added by me)

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  • #2
    Wow...hmmm- this is really really complex.

    I've done some aggressive (and slipping, uncoordinated) turns while overshooting in MSFS but this sounds like another instance of folks with now clue how to hand fly the plane.

    Maybe 50 degrees of bank is not the end of the word- aiming for 45 but overshoot just a tad (even though it's a big violation of good practices)

    But then to let the nose drop and not keep it coordinated and instead developing a big sink (the slip/sink is someting a bad pilot might commonly due but a good pilot really should not).

    But not only lousy hand flying technique, but no apparent regard for "the rules" of how you 'gently' and precisely operate an aircraft when truely flying on instruments.

    And yeah, seems like this was dangerously close to a smoking hole in the ground.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      And yeah, seems like this was dangerously close to a smoking hole in the ground.
      That's an understatement, given their recovery two seconds before impact.

      I would hope the first officer learned a little about possibly taking control from the captain should it be necessary.
      The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

      Comment


      • #4
        Latvian?

        One of the commenters indicates that the aircraft was of Latvian registry. He also indicated that he was the former chief pilot for Latvia's Baltic Air and that any Latvian pilot was better than any FAA trained pilot.

        Better at perhaps finding creative uses for bailing wire, duct tape and vise grips?

        The accident board did find that the aircraft in the configuration during the slip was out of control. Indeed, slips are fine especially in a sailplane or Cub when you are high but on track. In a Saab 340? I wouldn't want to be there. If you need to find out what a real slip is like, pry open the doors of your elevator and jump into the shaft ... sideways.
        Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
          .....I would hope the first officer learned a little about possibly taking control from the captain should it be necessary.
          ...or not flying with that particular captain ever again !!
          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

          Comment


          • #6
            Right on the nose Brian. This sounds like that B-52 pilot who flew his crew into the deck while demonstrating steep turns.
            Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by snydersnapshots View Post
              I would hope the first officer learned a little about possibly taking control from the captain should it be necessary.
              Hmmmmmmm........

              Originally posted by Finland's Onnettomuustutkintakeskus
              The co-pilot actively attempted to comply with the Company’s standard operating procedures. The co-pilot, as per the interview, wanted to abort the approach but, according to previous experience, the co-pilot did not believe that the captain would agree to this. It is likely that the co-pilot’s limited flight experience also factored in. Moreover, the co-pilot believed that any attempts to actively interfere with the captain’s flying, such as taking over the controls, would have spelled trouble later on.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by guamainiac View Post
                ...Indeed, slips are fine especially in a sailplane or Cub when you are high but on track. In a Saab 340?...
                I don't see evidence that this was a deliberate, cross-controlled slip, as much as a badly-managed steep turn.
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'd risk to say that the very high sink rate was, by far, linked more to the extreme 19 degrees nose-down attitude than to any degree of sideslip that developed due to a poorly managed steep turn.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    3we

                    Agree 3WE and the accident inquiry also mentioned "degraded situational awareness".
                    Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      I'd risk to say that the very high sink rate was, by far, linked more to the extreme 19 degrees nose-down attitude than to any degree of sideslip that developed due to a poorly managed steep turn.
                      It's all related Mr ISO 9001 QC Manager Black and White Thinker...

                      Make a steep turn and the nose drops AND you start side slipping...

                      Or hell, maybe I've got that backwards- you make a steep turn, start side slipping and then the tail weathervanes you into a nose-down attitude.

                      ...Heck, whever a small plane makes a turn, you almost always hear the prop speed increase...

                      It takes a fairly good pilot to do a steep turn, keep the ball centered, AND maintain altitude.

                      Time for you to go on MSFS and strap on your leather cap, grab a roll of TP and forget about "the right way to fly an airliner"...

                      Do some 70 and 80 degree banks....172 AND 747.

                      You see, you never know if Snyder and his copilot might get food poisoning AND a wing catches fire and you over shoot the localizer during an emergency approach (with aerosol cans exploding in the cargo bay).

                      If that happens, you might call upon your MSFS unstabilized approach skills and level off 2 seconds before impact and land safely and get everyone off just before the whole thing goes up in flames.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        3WE, you have to stab at the rudder pretty hard for a steep slip.
                        Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by guamainiac View Post
                          Right on the nose Brian. This sounds like that B-52 pilot who flew his crew into the deck while demonstrating steep turns.
                          Ah yes, this horrific incident. The captain involved had a previous history of flying very close to the edge...
                          WARNING!!!This video contains actual crash footage. Viewer discretion is advised.The 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash occurred at Fairchild Air Force...


                          EDIT: ...and this makes interesting reading. It concerns the B52 captain and his history but can equally apply to some civil captains.
                          Last edited by brianw999; 2013-10-02, 16:53.
                          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                            It's all related Mr ISO 9001 QC Manager Black and White Thinker...
                            Yes, but not SO MUCH related.

                            Make a steep turn and the nose drops AND you start side slipping...

                            Or hell, maybe I've got that backwards- you make a steep turn, start side slipping and then the tail weathervanes you into a nose-down attitude.

                            ...Heck, whever a small plane makes a turn, you almost always hear the prop speed increase...

                            It takes a fairly good pilot to do a steep turn, keep the ball centered, AND maintain altitude.
                            Forget the ball. Make a steep turn, don't keep the nose up, and the nose will go down and the sink rate will skyrocket (well, groundrocket) no matter what you do with the rudder and the ball (I am excluding knife-edge capable airplanes, ok?).

                            At the same time, make a steep turn, keep the nose up enough (i.e. keep the AoA needed to keep the correct load factor for the bank angle) and, as long you don't stall (spin crash burn die), you won't lose altitude, no matter what you do with the rudder or the ball.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              make a steep turn, keep the nose up enough...to keep the correct load factor for the bank angle...and, as long you don't stall...you won't lose altitude
                              Indeed.

                              That's what it's all about...and knowing how to manage phugoid behavior.
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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