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Southwest Airlines Nose Gear Collapse at LGA

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    ...They did flare...
    "They did flare-period-end of sentence" is a bit too absolute

    Flare is more of a process than a single instance of pulling up, slowing descent whatever.

    Your kinda sora supposed to continue the flare process ever slowing and getting the nose to a more normal touchdown attitude...hopefully just before touchdown where your vertical speed has slowed to negative almost nothing...

    Conversely, our resident airline pilots have all confessed to some occasional hard landings where the execution of their flare was not as cool as it should have been.

    I'm sure they were nowhere near shoving the nose gear (or main gear) back up into the plane...but it's all kind of relative.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      You don't approach with the nose so low.
      You didn't respond to my comment of "how in the hell can you be going 135 knots and be nose down?"

      (Don't explain how that can be done, I know EXACTLY how to do it)....but more correctly how in the hell can you be going 135 knots on a reasonably normal, reasonably stable approach and have that be a nose-down attitude.

      I would think 135 knots and a normal descent rate and a normal power setting and normal configuration and reasonable stability almost always = a nose-up 737???
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        You didn't respond to my comment of "how in the hell can you be going 135 knots and be nose down?"

        (Don't explain how that can be done, I know EXACTLY how to do it)....but more correctly how in the hell can you be going 135 knots on a reasonably normal, reasonably stable approach and have that be a nose-down attitude.
        That's the point. You can't.

        That's why my first comment after learning of the -3° touchodwn was:
        Strange. -3° is too low even before starting the flare.

        They were either too fast, or in a steep approach, or below 1G.
        It looks like it was the last option.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #64
          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          You didn't respond to my comment of "how in the hell can you be going 135 knots and be nose down?"

          (Don't explain how that can be done, I know EXACTLY how to do it)....but more correctly how in the hell can you be going 135 knots on a reasonably normal, reasonably stable approach and have that be a nose-down attitude.

          I would think 135 knots and a normal descent rate and a normal power setting and normal configuration and reasonable stability almost always = a nose-up 737???
          Hmmmm... Perhaps the speedbrakes were partially deployed. Just speculating here, but I think that would do it.
          The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            Sorry, but this cues the standard response.

            I imagine the pilots are not idiots.

            And I imagine that you are not perfect either. Ever mis judge things when you pull inot a parking place at 3 MPH...don't get aligned just right???

            It can be that subtle.

            I also note that the vast majority of airline pilots on this board who deal with us ass-hat-parlour-talkers are liberal with the phrase, "there but for the Grace of God go I"
            Hi Sir
            We are talking of people here flying around in airliners, not parking cars at 3 mph.
            If they stuff the nose down because they perceived they were too fast / too high, then even the most basic senses tell them they are going to land on a unicycle which will most likely fail.
            There is no excuse for this, the pilot was as 'idiotic' in his actions as the asian 777 pilot. Unless of course, someone proves differently.. strange that the asians took so much stick (deserved I believe) , but from a different culture they are given more leeway ?.
            Perhaps they should go and work at Micky D's.. maybe the best place for them ?
            Sorry, but..
            There is no game over, press start or new game....

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            • #66
              would you get a stick shaker in this scenario?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Willezurmacht View Post
                would you get a stick shaker in this scenario?
                Hardly.

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                • #68
                  Looks like the Korean press has a sense of humour ! Hats off to the little guys.

                  If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                    Looks like the Korean press has a sense of humour ! Hats off to the little guys.

                    http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023360356
                    Capt. Earl E. DeRotation I suspect...

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      Capt. Earl E. DeRotation I suspect...
                      It's hard to me to imagine a pilot de-rotating (lowering the nose to settle it on the ground) before having touched down.

                      It would be not just an error. It would be like turning 20ft before the corner.

                      It's easier for me to imagine a too high flare and the pilot noticing that and lowering the nose "a bit" to help the airplane go down before it looses too much speed too high, with the intention of making a second flare later, but overreacting and making too much of that "a bit" unexpectedly reaching the runway before that second rotation.

                      Just speculation, of course, but speculation for speculation, I like mine better

                      And so...

                      Capt. Earl E. Flare, FO Paul Uptoosoon

                      Or what about Capt Strut Inmy

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Joe H View Post
                        Hi Sir
                        We are talking of people here flying around in airliners, not parking cars at 3 mph.
                        If they stuff the nose down because they perceived they were too fast / too high, then even the most basic senses tell them they are going to land on a unicycle which will most likely fail.
                        There is no excuse for this, the pilot was as 'idiotic' in his actions as the asian 777 pilot. Unless of course, someone proves differently.. strange that the asians took so much stick (deserved I believe) , but from a different culture they are given more leeway ?.
                        Perhaps they should go and work at Micky D's.. maybe the best place for them ?
                        Sorry, but..
                        There is no game over, press start or new game....
                        I prefer to assume mitigating circumstances until there is enough evidence to call them 'plonkers' (this is the technical term for nosewheel landing pilots)

                        Those mitigating circumstances would have to be pretty amazing to excuse hurting people and breaking a plane when the option to go around is almost always there. Seen a lot of good approaches turn sour when the flare is messed up and it can happen so quickly that the damage can be done way before the option to go around becomes available.

                        Weather doesn't seem to be a factor on this one, so lets see what the investigation burps up.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          It's easier for me to imagine a too high flare and the pilot noticing that and lowering the nose "a bit" to help the airplane go down before it looses too much speed too high, with the intention of making a second flare later, but overreacting and making too much of that "a bit" unexpectedly reaching the runway before that second rotation.
                          Thanks...

                          I like yours better too.

                          Not that they TOTALLY forgot to flare ANY AT ALL WHATSOEVER (being absolute)

                          But at the last moment, a bit of inattention/zone out/tunnel vision and WHAM.

                          That's the basic mechanism of most hard landings.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            It's easier for me to imagine a too high flare and the pilot noticing that and lowering the nose "a bit" to help the airplane go down before it looses too much speed too high, with the intention of making a second flare later, but overreacting and making too much of that "a bit" unexpectedly reaching the runway before that second rotation.
                            EDIT: Oh, right, too high (too early), not too steep (pitch). I get it. The flare was about 15' higher than normal.

                            I do like Earl E. Flare though. Good one.

                            I wonder if an abrupt thrust to idle could have added to the pitch-down moment.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              I wonder if an abrupt thrust to idle could have added to the pitch-down moment.
                              No wonder. That's what idling the engines does for sure in airplanes with engines well under the CG.

                              On the other hand, that's what happens in every flare, so to what extent this was a contributing factor is an open question at most.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Wind shear ?

                                Maybe not......but it would be a cracking excuse which would be nigh on impossible for the NTSB to disprove.

                                ......which would give us Capt Wynn D Blodown !!
                                If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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