787 on fire at Logan

[Gabriel]

I also think it´ll become a good plane, but it isnt a success. Many things need to be corrected, the introduction of the A380 was very smooth in comparison.

A380 and smooth introduction in the same sentence. Certainly I don't agree, but I'd like to hear what others have to say.

Did Boeing mismanage the construction of the 787?
Yes, grossly.
Did Boeing mess up with the budgeting of the 787?
Yes, grossly.

Sorry, are you talking about the 787 or the A380? What you say could apply to both.

Will the 787 eventually become a good plane?
Most likely, but not for the shareholders nor subcontractors.

When was the last time that a widebody had a backlog of 800+ by when the first was being delivered?

With the backlog alone, Boeing has several years of manufacturing already scheduled, and I bet that selling just the backlog is enough to pay-off the investment. Just do 800*$200M.

As a comparison, the 747 sold twice that many but in 45 years.

[3WE]

I'm not sure if this is on the talley- but I guess we have a new fuel leak or something on one of those already-famous JAL freighters.

[Alessandro]

A380 and smooth introduction in the same sentence. Certainly I don't agree, but I'd like to hear what others have to say.


Sorry, are you talking about the 787 or the A380? What you say could apply to both.


When was the last time that a widebody had a backlog of 800+ by when the first was being delivered?

With the backlog alone, Boeing has several years of manufacturing already scheduled, and I bet that selling just the backlog is enough to pay-off the investment. Just do 800*$200M.

As a comparison, the 747 sold twice that many but in 45 years.

Why do you compare the 747 and 787 in numbers sold, the value of the manufactured is what matters not numbers made. Who makes most money, Fiat if they sell 200 Multipla or Rolls Royce if they sell 100 Silver-Ghosts?
A large backlog is burdensome if the product is delayed and riddled with faults.
The A380 introduction was smooth in comparision with the B787. Big mistake with the A380 was to offer a freight-version.

[Gabriel]

Why do you compare the 747 and 787 in numbers sold, the value of the manufactured is what matters not numbers made. Who makes most money, Fiat if they sell 200 Multipla or Rolls Royce if they sell 100 Silver-Ghosts?

I understand that. That's why I did the 800*200M multiplication.

A large backlog is burdensome if the product is delayed and riddled with faults.
The A380 introduction was smooth in comparision with the B787. Big mistake with the A380 was to offer a freight-version.

It was delayed. Now all orders were re-scheduled and Boeing is producing the plane at quite a pace and the ramp-up is going nicely. And I wouldn't say that is riddled with fault either. There seems to be one sensitive point with the electrical system, that was one of the big breakthrough in this development so it's not strange that there are some teething problems with it, which I am confident that Boeing will solve.

I don't know why the comparison with the A380, but that launch was delayed several years too (remember the problem with the routing of the wires?). And had a lot of problems with the engines, including an uncontained failure that nearly seized the wing spar and could have very well been a total air disaster, and which led to the inspection of all the engines of that type, with many of them being found defective. Remember?

Anyway, still teething problems. They can affect any system of the airplanes, including the electrical system and the powerplant.

And still, the business case of the A380 seems complicated. It had 262 orders in total, which even after you take into account that the tag price is twice that of the 787, still makes for 35% less revenue (and it was introduced several years earlier, with orders being taken since 2001). It terms of costs and margins, I don't know, but then who knows?

[Gabriel]

Why do you compare the 747 and 787 in numbers sold, the value of the manufactured is what matters not numbers made. Who makes most money, Fiat if they sell 200 Multipla or Rolls Royce if they sell 100 Silver-Ghosts?
A large backlog is burdensome if the product is delayed and riddled with faults.
The A380 introduction was smooth in comparision with the B787. Big mistake with the A380 was to offer a freight-version.

The A380 has won 262 orders total. Even when you take into account that its tag price is twice that much of the 787, it still gives you 35% less revenue (in total orders). And that even when Airbus is accepting orders for the A380 since 2001, that is, several years before Boeing started accepting orders.

I don't know how to measure the "smoothness" of the introduction, but the A380 was not free of several years of delay (remember the problem routing the wires?) and teething problems (remember the uncontained engine failure that luckily (because luck was a strong factor) didn't down a Qantas A380 and, as a consequence of that, the grounding of the fleet to verify all engines, finding a lot of them with the same problem that caused the uncontained failure?

I leave to others to judge the "smoothness" of each case.

EDIT: Sorry, for some reason I didn't saw the first post immediately and I thought "I must have pressed the wrong button", so I made this shorter version.

[TheKiecker]

While Gabriel is rearranging deckchairs like Northwestern in Poland....

FLASH: ANA-operated Boeing 787 makes emergency landing after smoke in cabin: NHK

[Alessandro]

I understand that. That's why I did the 800*200M multiplication.


It was delayed. Now all orders were re-scheduled and Boeing is producing the plane at quite a pace and the ramp-up is going nicely. And I wouldn't say that is riddled with fault either. There seems to be one sensitive point with the electrical system, that was one of the big breakthrough in this development so it's not strange that there are some teething problems with it, which I am confident that Boeing will solve.

I don't know why the comparison with the A380, but that launch was delayed several years too (remember the problem with the routing of the wires?). And had a lot of problems with the engines, including an uncontained failure that nearly seized the wing spar and could have very well been a total air disaster, and which led to the inspection of all the engines of that type, with many of them being found defective. Remember?

Anyway, still teething problems. They can affect any system of the airplanes, including the electrical system and the powerplant.

And still, the business case of the A380 seems complicated. It had 262 orders in total, which even after you take into account that the tag price is twice that of the 787, still makes for 35% less revenue (and it was introduced several years earlier, with orders being taken since 2001). It terms of costs and margins, I don't know, but then who knows?

The wiring issues was before delivery of the A380 not after, like the electric problems with B787 is both before and after delivery. Engine failure was bad, but A380 survived it.
My opinion is that the early B787 has been rebuilt so many times that they are lemons,

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/01/20131161112528514.html

[TheKiecker]

Nice link...

So 24 of the 50 787's have now been grounded , but its all the Airbus fanboys fault?

Argue the plane.

[tsv]

I have to say that I wouldn't feel too confidant right now flying on a 787. After thousands of hours testing and test flying and only now are these issues coming to light ?

Where is your sense of Adventure Brian? First you tell me you wouldn't fly on any Russian made Aircraft, now you won't even get on one certified by the FAA! I take it you're not an Astronaut, occasional Bungy Jumper or even a Hang Glider Pilot

I can tell you flying on "Youthful" Aircraft can give you a few Butterflies. I remember flying the AN-148 from SVO to LED and feeling a touch nervous because I knew that even though the Aircraft was Certified it was still very much in it's Teething years. As it turned out it was a great ride on a very nice little Aircraft. I suspect the 787 would give me a similar nervous feeling but I will still be hoping to catch it when I fly SCL-BUE-SCL with LAN later this year.

[Highkeas]

It would be interesting to know if the 787, or similar, battery is used on other FBW aircraft.
Maybe the NTSB will provide the answer.

[justLOT787]

LOT Polish Airlines B787 SP-LRA on it way to KORD today

[brianw999]

......now you won't even get on one certified by the FAA! I take it you're not an Astronaut, occasional Bungy Jumper or even a Hang Glider Pilot .....

...I'll happily get on FAA certified aircraft, just a bit wary of the 787 right now

[tsv]

OMG LA445 has had an equipment change and I'm now scheduled to travel on the flying Smokebomb!

Dreamliner or inspiration for some serious Nightmares? I'll let you know how I sleep during the next 6 weeks!

[Highkeas]

OMG LA445 has had an equipment change and I'm now scheduled to travel on the flying Smokebomb!

Dreamliner or inspiration for some serious Nightmares? I'll let you know how I sleep during the next 6 weeks!

The US (FAA) and Japan have grounded all domestic 787 flights until the battery investigation is complete.

[Alessandro]

The US (FAA) and Japan have grounded all domestic 787 flights until the battery investigation is complete.

Pic of the batteries that burnt on Logan here, http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ry-box-381030/