Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 94

Thread: F***ing unbelievable!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Buenos Aires - Argentina
    Posts
    5,288

    Default F***ing unbelievable!

    At what time do some airline pilots forget that, over anything else, they are, well, pilots?
    And that "fly the plane" is always the first priority?
    And that the Primary Flight Display has the words "Primary" and "Flight" on its name for a reason?
    And that if you don't understand "what is it doing now", perhaps the best course of action is that YOU start doing something, like flying the damn plane yourself using, you know, the manual flight controls like those available in all planes from the Cessna 150 where you logged your first hour to this hi-tech Airbus where you logged your hour, how much? Oh yes, 23226 (3081 on type) for the capt and 9647 (2410 on type) for the FO????

    Next time that something odd happens, would one of you keep the eyes on the PFD and take manual control if necessary while the other one plays with the ECAM, the AP, the AT, the FD, the radar and the radios?

    http://avherald.com/h?article=44280b2a/0006&opt=0

  2. #2
    Member James Bruno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Miami, Florida.
    Posts
    153

    Default

    Only this would happen to Air France.
    the 747 will always be superior.

  3. #3
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,266

    Default

    Gabriel:

    1) Take a deep breath.
    2) Remember Eastern Airlines L1011 with a burnt out gear bulb and descending into the FL Everglades.
    3) Remember numerous other CFIT where the descent continued even though it shouldn't have.
    4) Remember Murphy's Law, Swiss Cheese and the $20 word 'insidious' and the other word 'routine'
    5) You've never had a brief attention lapse? I've crashed MSFS more than once, and over 40 years of driving a car- have made a couple errors.

    Getting into the situation is oh so very easy. Save your "where's-the-fundamentals" anger for how they get out of (or fail to get out of) the situation.
    Tres Caca de Toro

  4. #4
    Super Moderator brianw999's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Tunbridge Wells, Kent. UK.
    Posts
    11,249

    Default

    I couldn't help but smile at this comment later in the forum posts...

    I think the most shocking thing about this whole incident is that someone managed to get an A343 into a rapid climb...


    and this one as well....

    Fly(Aviate), navigate, communicate. Huh?
    Not interfere, announcement, landing lights, hf communication ...


    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  5. #5
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Buenos Aires - Argentina
    Posts
    5,288

    Default

    3we, have you actually read the AvHerald article?

    102 seconds after the upset began, the aircraft was descending through 36,500 feet, the pilot flying finally notices the autopilot had disconnected and begins to operate his side stick
    Brief attention lapse my arse.

    In the mean time, the plane climbed from 3000 ft from 35.000ft to 38.000 ft, reaching a vertical speed of 5700 fpm, the pitch angle increased fro 3 to 12 degrees nose-up, and the speed wnt down from overspeed (M .87) to near stall (M .66 which was 229 kts or 19 kts below the minimum selectable speed).

    In the meantime, the pilots:
    Did not notice that one of them moved the sidestick and pressed the AP disconnect button.
    Did not notice that the AP was off.
    Did not notice the pitch, climb rate or airspeed upsets.
    Did not hear the altitude alert that sounded when they deviated from their assigned altitude.
    And when they noted some of these things, they:
    Made PA anouncements
    Turned on the landing lights
    Changed the range in the navigation display
    Called ATC to report turbulence
    Tried selecting a higher speed (when they noted that it was too low), of course since the A/T was on it was already TOGAing so selecting a higher speed won't help much, but lowering the nose, perhaps, maybe, but no, it would take another full minute until someone noticed that nobody (human or machine) was flying the plane.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Buenos Aires - Argentina
    Posts
    5,288

    Default

    Further, after reviewing the official BEA report, I conclude that at least to some extent these pilots and passengers owe their lives to Airbus and its FBW logic that prevented a stall with its alpha-prot function, which was active during most of the time during the incident.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    I couldn't help but smile at this comment later in the forum posts...



    and this one as well....


    You got there before me, Brian!

    I think the thing that surprises me is that these incidents seem to be relatively recent in AF's A330/340 experience; the A330 crash was in 2009, by which time AF had been operating A330s for eight years an A340s for around fifteen years, so hardly a new operator of Airbus FBW types (indeed, on short haul, the very first).

    This is around the third such incident with AF (excuding the YYZ A340, which was for different reasons), so what is happening with their training? This is something the BEA needs to look at; what in the AF pilot training syllabus has been cut or even just cut short?

    I think the other thing that probably needs to be said is that this incident occurred before the lessons of AF 447 were incorporated into the airline's sim training (which I believe now includes recovery from stalls at high level).

  8. #8
    Super Moderator brianw999's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Tunbridge Wells, Kent. UK.
    Posts
    11,249

    Default

    ^^^
    Absolutely.

    I'm not starting an "A is better than B" argument but it has to be said that if that had been a Boeing the following would probably have been true.....

    1. The pilots would have noticed that they were in the shit a damn sight sooner

    And

    2. The situation would have been even harder to recover.

    There is a YouTube video of Bruce Dickinson ( B757 pilot and lead singer of Iron Maiden) doing a very similar thing in an Airbus and comments "If I was to do this in my Boeing we'd be a smoking hole in the ground right now" !!!
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  9. #9
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Buenos Aires - Argentina
    Posts
    5,288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    ^^^
    Absolutely.

    I'm not starting an "A is better than B" argument but it has to be said that if that had been a Boeing the following would probably have been true.....

    1. The pilots would have noticed that they were in the shit a damn sight sooner

    And

    2. The situation would have been even harder to recover.

    There is a YouTube video of Bruce Dickinson ( B757 pilot and lead singer of Iron Maiden) doing a very similar thing in an Airbus and comments "If I was to do this in my Boeing we'd be a smoking hole in the ground right now" !!!
    Had this been a Boeing, the incident would have not even started since it would be very difficult to pull back on the yoke 75% of its travel without noticing.

    Then, in the white zone of the PDF plot (that is where load factor control was into effect) a Boeing left alone would have pitched down and kept the AoA instead of keeping the pitch and increasing the AoA as this Airbus did. However, the airbus never let the AoA get that high as to cause a stall. It would not allow it (in normal law, I mean, a benefit that the famous Rio-Paris flight didn't have).

    Note that, except for the 6 seconds of unintentional pull-up, for 104 seconds the airplane flew on its own free of the command of any pilot, be it human or Otto. But had the pilots kept pulling up, the Airbus would have prevented a stall. Not so in a FBW Boeing, which would have attempted to prevent the stall but would have left overriding authority to the human pilot. A 757, that is not FBW, would have done nothing to prevent a stall other than warn of the stall proximity condition. So Bruce Dikinson is right, but what he did (to pull full up and keep doing so) is not what happened in this incident.

  10. #10
    Super Moderator brianw999's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Tunbridge Wells, Kent. UK.
    Posts
    11,249

    Default

    I therefore stand corrected

    Only ever having flown a Piper PA28 I think I'd best keep out of these discussions !
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  11. #11
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Buenos Aires - Argentina
    Posts
    5,288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    I therefore stand corrected

    Only ever having flown a Piper PA28 I think I'd best keep out of these discussions !
    Had this been a PA28, this incident would have not even started since it would be very difficult to pull back on the yoke 75% of its travel without noticing.

    Please, do keep posting. You are the second person in two days that says that will keep from posting because of what I say.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator brianw999's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Tunbridge Wells, Kent. UK.
    Posts
    11,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Had this been a PA28, this incident would have not even started since it would be very difficult to pull back on the yoke 75% of its travel without noticing.

    Please, do keep posting. You are the second person in two days that says that will keep from posting because of what I say.
    Nothing to do with what you say Gabriel

    Everything to do with me not being very technically minded when it comes to airliners.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  13. #13
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,266

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    3we, have you actually read the AvHerald article?


    Brief attention lapse my arse...
    It's why flyboy calls me 3BS...running my mouth without all the facts

    But...

    Just remember- there's a quote on this forum somewhere where it was suggested that Airbus pilots genuinely needed to take on a video-game mentality as opposed to an ITS-Piper Cub-Airmanship-Fundamentals mentality.

    And, I do belive I've popped a beer with the TV on in the background and flown some relatively similar maneuvers on MSFS.
    Tres Caca de Toro

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    MA, USA
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Just remember- there's a quote on this forum somewhere where it was suggested that Airbus pilots genuinely needed to take on a video-game mentality as opposed to an ITS-Piper Cub-Airmanship-Fundamentals mentality.
    With one key difference: in an Airbus (or Boeing or whatever), unlike in most video games, you get only 1 life!
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    769

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brianw999 View Post
    ^^^
    Absolutely.

    I'm not starting an "A is better than B" argument but it has to be said that if that had been a Boeing the following would probably have been true.....

    1. The pilots would have noticed that they were in the shit a damn sight sooner

    And

    2. The situation would have been even harder to recover.

    There is a YouTube video of Bruce Dickinson ( B757 pilot and lead singer of Iron Maiden) doing a very similar thing in an Airbus and comments "If I was to do this in my Boeing we'd be a smoking hole in the ground right now" !!!
    Thank you for this Brian! I was completely unaware of this series and that Dickenson even flies. I'm enjoying this greatly, though I haven't found the episode you mention yet. Excellent!

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ipswich UK
    Posts
    225

    Default It can't climb properly?

    [quote=brianw999;601903]I couldn't help but smile at this comment later in the forum posts...


    I think the most shocking thing about this whole incident is that someone managed to get an A343 into a rapid climb...



    B, bu, but I'm booked with Gulf Air to Bahrain in January and I think its a 330. I never heard that they don't climb very well, Mr brianw999. Is this joke based on actual performance reality, please?

  17. #17
    Member SAMRPICS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Manchester (Knutsford)
    Posts
    392

    Default

    The A330 climbs very well, the A340 climbs slowly and steadily and is refered to by us enthusiasts as powered by 4 hair dryers.
    <CENTER><SCRIPT LANGUAGE='JavaScript' SRC='http://www.jetphotos.net/jp_forum_sign.php?photogid=12965' TYPE='text/javascript'></SCRIPT></CENTER>

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ipswich UK
    Posts
    225

    Default Red Smoking Jacket and Lime Green Sneakers

    I just looked at the url you gave, Mr Gabriel and I'm puzzled. How could a professional pilot not notice an extreme nose up attitude? Its right there on the big blue and brown screen on the simulator I used and its extremely easy to see and notice if your nose is pointing too much above the brown with a lot of blue showing, even for a professional aviation disaster like me. I've never had a crash or stalled becauseI didn't notice my nose was too upwards pointing. I conclude that there is an unknown psychology at play, here. They were distracted, they missed vital information, they acted unprofessionally. the only possible conclusion is they were distracted. I suspect boredom and Pilot's Fuge where pilots are lulled to a dream state by the little coloured lights, the occassional snapple of the radio, the familiar whirrs clicks and whines of the flight deck. What can be done to ensure this doesn't happen when I fly to India via Bahrain on a 330 of some kind in January? Could I pop up to the FD and offer 5 minutes of stand-up wearing my new red velvet smoking jacket and the lime green sneakers so thoughtfully provided on my recent birthday, by the mother-in-law? Or perhaps I could do some breathing exercises with them. Not the sneakers, I mean with the pilots.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    L.A.
    Posts
    6,865

    Default

    Wow...how are some pilots that inept at interpreting their primary flight instruments? This is a serious recurring problem. Reminds me of the Turkish 738 at AMS.

    Also the similarities between this and AF447 are telling.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingogunner View Post
    I just looked at the url you gave, Mr Gabriel and I'm puzzled. How could a professional pilot not notice an extreme nose up attitude? Its right there on the big blue and brown screen on the simulator I used and its extremely easy to see and notice if your nose is pointing too much above the brown with a lot of blue showing, even for a professional aviation disaster like me. I've never had a crash or stalled becauseI didn't notice my nose was too upwards pointing. I conclude that there is an unknown psychology at play, here. They were distracted, they missed vital information, they acted unprofessionally. the only possible conclusion is they were distracted. I suspect boredom and Pilot's Fuge where pilots are lulled to a dream state by the little coloured lights, the occassional snapple of the radio, the familiar whirrs clicks and whines of the flight deck. What can be done to ensure this doesn't happen when I fly to India via Bahrain on a 330 of some kind in January? Could I pop up to the FD and offer 5 minutes of stand-up wearing my new red velvet smoking jacket and the lime green sneakers so thoughtfully provided on my recent birthday, by the mother-in-law? Or perhaps I could do some breathing exercises with them. Not the sneakers, I mean with the pilots.
    Same sort of thing I wondered many years ago when a plane plunged into a swamp in Florida because everybody in the cockpit was gathered around some burnt out bulb. I'd like to thing we've advanced a lot since that day. But?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •