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Thread: Aeroflot A320 take off at -1C without deicing

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    Member Dmitry's Avatar
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    Default Aeroflot A320 take off at -1C without deicing

    http://youtu.be/925MgqyU2NA

    Location: UUEE
    Day of month: 01
    Time: 17:00 UTC
    Wind: True direction = 310 degrees, Speed: 2 m/s
    Visibility: 10 km or more
    Clouds: Overcast sky , at 3000 feet above aerodrome level
    Temperature: -01 degrees Celsius
    Dewpoint: -03 degrees Celsius
    QNH: 1012 hPa
    No significant changes expected in the near future
    Runway state:
    Runway 25 Right: wet snow, contamination 10% or less, deposit is 1 mm deep, friction coefficient 0.45
    Runway state:
    Runway 25 (or 25 Left): wet snow, contamination 10% or less, deposit is 1 mm deep, friction coefficient 0.45

    Flight Manual A320:
    All surfaces of the aircraft (critical surfaces : leading edges and upper surfaces of wings, vertical and horizontal stabilizers, all control surfaces, slats and flaps) must be clear of snow, frost and ice for takeoff.
    Air crashes don't just happen... www.aircrash.ucoz.net

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    Member Dmitry's Avatar
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    01.01.2012
    SVO-LED
    A320 (VP-BKY)

    Official response from Aeroflot regarding the video (translated from Russian):

    "Dear custumer! We were given an explanation by the deputy director of Flight Operations and Director of the Department Mr. I.Chalik and the head of the management of aviation safety Mr. A.Koldunov. No violations have been made and it is clear from the video. The snow was instantly blown away by the flux of air, which clearly indicates the lack of effect on the aerodynamics and flight safety. Safety is our top priority!"

    According to the notes of the video owner.
    http://twitter.com/#!/anopov
    http://twitlonger.com/show/gstm07

    My own conclusions:
    1) It's prohibited to take off with snow, ice, shit on the wings.
    2) The snow hadnt been blown away completely before the plane took off
    3) There could have been ice under the snow.
    4) Aeroflot doesn't care about safety.
    5) There's great similarity to the case of UTair ATR-72 (which ended tragically)
    Air crashes don't just happen... www.aircrash.ucoz.net

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    The deputy director of Flight Operations and Director of the Department Mr. I.Chalik and the head of the management of aviation safety Mr. A.Koldunov are more criminal that the pilots. In other words, with these generals what can you expect from the troop?

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    Member Dmitry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    The deputy director of Flight Operations and Director of the Department Mr. I.Chalik and the head of the management of aviation safety Mr. A.Koldunov are more criminal that the pilots. In other words, with these generals what can you expect from the troop?
    Right, the reaction of the airline officials is outrageous. I didn't expect there's such a mess in Aeroflot, cause it seems to be a benchmark airline in the country.
    What about other airlines in Russia? I dont think this case is a unique blunder. It seems to be a common practice according to the airline respose.
    Air crashes don't just happen... www.aircrash.ucoz.net

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    Member Fear_of_Flying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry View Post
    Right, the reaction of the airline officials is outrageous. I didn't expect there's such a mess in Aeroflot, cause it seems to be a benchmark airline in the country.
    What about other airlines in Russia? I dont think this case is a unique blunder. It seems to be a common practice according to the airline respose.
    "Ladies and Gentlemen, the hole you see in the engine does not pose a safety issue. Please get back on the plane, we're taking off."

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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear_of_Flying View Post
    "Ladies and Gentlemen, the hole you see in the engine does not pose a safety issue. Please get back on the plane, we're taking off."
    The problem, again, is not so much what is being said but who is saying it.
    Lufthansa? No problem.
    Aeroflot? I won't hear the PA because I will never get on one of their planes to begin with.

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    Member Dmitry's Avatar
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    Default VP-BKY - Rostropovich

    Quote Originally Posted by Fear_of_Flying View Post
    "Ladies and Gentlemen, the hole you see in the engine does not pose a safety issue. Please get back on the plane, we're taking off."
    Well, this plane needs no deicing before flights in snowy Russian winters, it's been blessed by the priest.
    http://www.avia.ru/photo/aeroflotA32...vich/pano1.jpg
    Air crashes don't just happen... www.aircrash.ucoz.net

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    Member Fear_of_Flying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry View Post
    Well, this plane needs no deicing before flights in snowy Russian winters, it's been blessed by the priest.
    http://www.avia.ru/photo/aeroflotA32...vich/pano1.jpg
    No wonder the Russian planes are so holy. Gives new meaning to the phrase, "On a wing and a prayer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    The problem, again, is not so much what is being said but who is saying it.
    Lufthansa? No problem.
    Aeroflot? I won't hear the PA because I will never get on one of their planes to begin with.
    Strange comment from a Pilot. Surely you are aware that the Taxi Driver that takes you and/or your Customers to the Airport is far more dangerous than any Aeroflot Aircraft ever will be?

    I've flown in Russia numerous times with Aeroflot and several other Russian Airlines and have never had any concerns. Granted it is obvious they don't take Air Safety quite as seriously as Western Countries but when you think about it why would they? Things on the ground are not safe at all, there are people smoking deadly cigarettes, drinking alcohol excessively, taking illegal Drugs, driving like Madmen, etc etc. Same as everywhere else in the World really, perhaps just a bit more extreme than some other Countries. Point is the chances of being involved in a crash on an Aeroflot flight are extremely small.

    With regard to the Snow on the Wing it certainly looks disconcerting but how much time elapses between de-icing and take off? And how much Snow could collect on a wing during this time? If the Aircraft had to hold on taxiway for a few minutes surely it would be normal for Snow to accumulate?

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    Super Moderator brianw999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsv View Post
    ............And how much Snow could collect on a wing during this time? If the Aircraft had to hold on taxiway for a few minutes surely it would be normal for Snow to accumulate?
    Yeah....but not that much ! That has to be pushing 2 inches of snow there !!
    ...and looking at the clean line on the flaps, that snow had been there for some time with every chance of it being more compact and therefore less likely to blow clear than a fresh covering. The aircraft had gone quite a distance before the snow cleared, they must have been damn close to V1 before it became safely flyable.
    I'm with Gabriel here....no way I'm going with Aeroflot. Anyway...have you seen what they charge compared to other airlines !!!

    tsv said...
    Surely you are aware that the Taxi Driver that takes you and/or your Customers to the Airport is far more dangerous than any Aeroflot Aircraft ever will be?
    Possibly...but what scares me is that there is every chance of the same taxi driver being the bloody pilot in Russia. !!!

    ...and taxi's don't crash at 150 + mph !!
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsv View Post
    Strange comment from a Pilot. Surely you are aware that the Taxi Driver that takes you and/or your Customers to the Airport is far more dangerous than any Aeroflot Aircraft ever will be?

    I've flown in Russia numerous times with Aeroflot and several other Russian Airlines and have never had any concerns. Granted it is obvious they don't take Air Safety quite as seriously as Western Countries but when you think about it why would they? Things on the ground are not safe at all, there are people smoking deadly cigarettes, drinking alcohol excessively, taking illegal Drugs, driving like Madmen, etc etc. Same as everywhere else in the World really, perhaps just a bit more extreme than some other Countries. Point is the chances of being involved in a crash on an Aeroflot flight are extremely small.
    pwned.
    You are right. If I had to go from Moscow to Siberia and had to choose between the taxi driver and Aeroflot, I'd take Aeroflot any day.

    With regard to the Snow on the Wing it certainly looks disconcerting but how much time elapses between de-icing and take off? And how much Snow could collect on a wing during this time? If the Aircraft had to hold on taxiway for a few minutes surely it would be normal for Snow to accumulate?
    This is one thing I am investigating, but couldn't come up with an answer yet.

    If the manuals say "no snow before take-off", as reported, then this is a violation even if it accumulated after deicing.
    I've heard of airplanes that returned for deicing after a long ground hold and of deicing equipment being placed nearer to the hold line to deice the airplanes closer to the take-off (I don't know if the equipment can be simply "moved" there on will or if you have to have an appropriate ground infrastructure (a draining and collection system).

    I also want to stress what Brian said about the flaps: The part that is hidden when stowed is completely clean, no flake of snow there (other than a spot of what seems snow that fell from the wing). It could be that they extended the flaps immediately before the video starts? And more incredible, at the beginning of the roll you can see a rectangle of wing that is completely clean. How can you explain that if they took the snow during taxi and ground hold?

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    Dutch ....... ErwinS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsv View Post
    With regard to the Snow on the Wing it certainly looks disconcerting but how much time elapses between de-icing and take off? And how much Snow could collect on a wing during this time? If the Aircraft had to hold on taxiway for a few minutes surely it would be normal for Snow to accumulate?
    Maybe you remember Air Florida Flight 90?
    They were de-iced but the snow built up during the taxi resulted in the following crash.
    “The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.”

    Erwin


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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErwinS View Post
    Maybe you remember Air Florida Flight 90?
    They were de-iced but the snow built up during the taxi resulted in the following crash.
    Not only that.

    They were badly de-iced. The setting in the ground equipment was wrong do they de-iced the plane mostly with pure water.

    Another thing is that they used reversers for push-back, which is thought to have blown snow from the ground into the engine blocking the pressure sensors.

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    Dutch ....... ErwinS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Not only that.

    They were badly de-iced. The setting in the ground equipment was wrong do they de-iced the plane mostly with pure water.

    Another thing is that they used reversers for push-back, which is thought to have blown snow from the ground into the engine blocking the pressure sensors.
    True there were other causes. My Point is that after de-icing (bad or good) the wing still can pick up snow.
    “The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.”

    Erwin


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    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErwinS View Post
    True there were other causes. My Point is that after de-icing (bad or good) the wing still can pick up snow.
    I wonder what happens in a properly de-iced wing where the anti-ice agent sticks to the surface (it is designed to shed at some 100 kts or so).

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    Member Dmitry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsv View Post
    With regard to the Snow on the Wing it certainly looks disconcerting but how much time elapses between de-icing and take off? And how much Snow could collect on a wing during this time? If the Aircraft had to hold on taxiway for a few minutes surely it would be normal for Snow to accumulate?
    Not so much really! Here it looks like the aircraft hadn't been deiced at all and the wings hadn't even been checked for the presence of ice under the wet snow cap. Btw, the witness and the author of the footage proves that no deicing procedures or cleaning of the wing had been done by the time he boarded the plane and there had been no snow falling afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    If the manuals say "no snow before take-off", as reported, then this is a violation even if it accumulated after deicing.
    That's it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I've heard of airplanes that returned for deicing after a long ground hold and of deicing equipment being placed nearer to the hold line to deice the airplanes closer to the take-off
    Haha, it's great but not for Russia, you see) After watching such videos and hearing from airlines that it's normal, this "extra safety level" looks really funny. It's bothering, strange and wasteful for Russian airlines. If you don't mind, there're awards and bonuses for econimical pilots (confirmed after crashes by UTair, s7, Pulkovo airlines). So, the crew is also interested.

    And after all airlines keep on saying (as it had been recently said in the case of TSO's fabulous "hole in the engine") - "our pilots are not kamikaze".
    I want to believe.
    Air crashes don't just happen... www.aircrash.ucoz.net

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    Default Don't Fly Aeroflot

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    The problem, again, is not so much what is being said but who is saying it.
    Lufthansa? No problem.
    Aeroflot? I won't hear the PA because I will never get on one of their planes to begin with.
    Should not our governments issue official warnings not to fly Aeroflot? Is Aeroflot permitted to land in EU, USA?

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    Member Dmitry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingogunner View Post
    Should not our governments issue official warnings not to fly Aeroflot? Is Aeroflot permitted to land in EU, USA?
    What a good idea! How else can we give them a sign to follow basic safety instructions. The owner of the video promised to write to EASA, IATA and SkyTeam.
    Air crashes don't just happen... www.aircrash.ucoz.net

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    Member Dmitry's Avatar
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    Default The Moscow Times

    Finally in mass media!
    Video of Snow-Covered Aeroflot Wing Goes Viral Amid Air Safety Fears
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...rs/456553.html
    Air crashes don't just happen... www.aircrash.ucoz.net

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    Member Dmitry's Avatar
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    Default Continuation of the story

    Official response from Bermuda Department of Civil Aviation
    http://snowafl.ru/graphics/VP-BKY_BERMUDA_CAA_REPLY.jpg

    Having collected 100 petition signatures online against that glaring safety violation, the letter was sent to the chairman of the board of Aeroflot and to Federal Air Transport Agency.
    http://snowafl.ru/graphics/DEM_1.jpg
    (in Russian of course)

    Special web page was created by the witness of the incident (Mr.Anopov). The first officer of the aircraft during that flight got in touch with Anopov and said that Captain Mr. Zolotaryov ignored his warning concerning the undone de-icing procedures.
    http://snowafl.ru/
    Air crashes don't just happen... www.aircrash.ucoz.net

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