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  • #31
    Originally posted by MCM View Post
    It is quite interesting that these large delays do seem to pop up with regular occurance in the US, but less so internationally.
    Uh... we have a bit of a thrift complex when it comes to sustaining our public infrastructure these days. Try to make improvements and you get called a "socialist". I'm afraid air travel will only get worse until that stigma blows over. I'm always a bit embarrassed when I return from Europe to JFK and spend the first half hour with confused foreigners in a dreary customs room that looks like the looted basement of a post-riot K-Mart. Welcome to the third world amigo.

    For instance, here is what is holding up Next Gen ATC in the US:

    But the agency in charge of the program, the Federal Aviation Administration, has been hamstrung by political infighting that deprived it of a stable budget for five years. Congress finally approved a four-year budget for the agency in February, including $1 billion a year for the program, called the Next Generation Air Transportation System, or NextGen.
    That is the direct work of the "anti-socialism" trend in Congress. Despite that fact that...

    Given the expected growth in air traffic in the next decades, airlines and regulators say there is an urgent need to modernize the existing air traffic control system. The F.A.A. projects that the number of planes flown by domestic airlines will double in the next two decades, while the number of domestic passengers will reach 1 billion by 2024, up from about 732 million this year. Much of that growth will be concentrated in the biggest airports, most of which are already congested, particularly at peak hours.
    So what do you expect? Ultimately, if you want airports to be able to deal with delays humanely, you have to examine your politics.

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    • #32
      so here is AA's policy from their website

      Our plans stipulate that when a flight experiences a lengthy tarmac delay, customers will be offered snack food and potable water no later than two hours following gate departure or flight touchdown. Should a customer require urgent medical attention at any time, assistance will be provided. If aircraft lavatory servicing becomes necessary, this will be accomplished as soon as conditions will safely allow. On domestic flights customers will be given the opportunity to deplane the aircraft before the ground delay exceeds three hours. Passengers on delayed flights will receive notifications regarding the status of the delay every 30 minutes while the aircraft is delayed, including the reasons for the tarmac delay, if known. Passengers on a delayed flight will be notified beginning 30 minutes after the scheduled departure time and every 30 minutes thereafter that they have the opportunity to deplane from an aircraft that is at the gate or another disembarkation area, if the opportunity to deplane actually exists. On international flights operated by American Airlines or American Eagle, customers will be given the opportunity to deplane before the delay exceeds four hours

      as far as i'm concerned, 3 and 4 hours stuck on a plane before your flight is still unacceptable. not to mention, do they intend to keep a/c or heat on? running the APU or engines? very fuel efficient! and you may be forced to sit and wait for two plus hours before you are even given water? this is cruel. plain and simple.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
        ...as far as i'm concerned, 3 and 4 hours stuck on a plane before your flight is still unacceptable. not to mention, do they intend to keep a/c or heat on? running the APU or engines? very fuel efficient! and you may be forced to sit and wait for two plus hours before you are even given water? this is cruel. plain and simple.
        Now I will disagree:

        -I WANT to get where I'm going- I don't like delays, but I don't have much choice. I don't like sitting on a plane, but the airlines are trying to get EVERYONE to thier destinations.

        -People are routinely (repeating routinely) stuck in the air for 3 and 4 hours- so if the toilet's working, there's some drinks and I'm not having chest pains- while it may suck, that's life. (Ok, they should not withold water till 2 hours, but I think that's a CYA policy since things have to be cleared for takeoff- and in many of these cases, it's ATC dangling a carrot on a fishing pole that the release/departure slot is pending...any minute now...)

        So, it sucks, but I will sit on the nasty airplane, within site of the gate for 2 hours if it helps keep things on schedule- and it's no different than being stuck in that nasty tube for the same amount of time in the air.

        And then, let's be real. My caring, customer-comes-first dispatcher sees the clock hit 2 hours. So, he snaps his fingers, clicks his heels and wiggles his nose and we're off the plane....

        ...sorry NOT that simple. I will give the airlines their "whining" that the gates are full, the taxiways clogged, the tugs are spinning their wheels, and God knows if ATC might not give us our release at 2:05, 2:30 or even 3:00 after departing the gate. [Edit: They do need to empower pilots, and dispatchers and gate agents to go into "trapped passenger mode" to do creative and common sense things (like borrowing gates) to get folks off planes as qucikly as possible]

        ...crap happens, it's a bad day, it might just take an hour (or two) to get me off the plane.

        Oh yeah, it sucks- but I want my cheap internet fare, AND I want to get to my destination, so the airlines ARE going to pinch penneys and not have double the gates they need on a sunny day, nor heated concrete ramps so the tugs don't get stuck.

        So, as long as there's a real plan with some real contingencies that does get executed and gets almost everyone off the planes within 4 hours...that's pretty good- and gives the option for them to try to get the most folks they can to their destinations on a day that is touch and go.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #34
          ah yes, well take this scenario: you board a cramped 737 or 757 at BOS bound for LAX with a scheduled travel time of 6.5 hours. and you luck out and get the center seat. it's snowing like a bitch. you push back from the gate, taxi a few hundred yards, and stop. you are stuck there for 2:59, at at which point you takeoff. you spend 9.5 hours in a center seat on a 757. what you paid for?

          how bout this? you are unlucky or stupid enough to book a flight from JFK to CDG on a 757. same scenario except now they hold you on the tarmac for 3:59, followed by 7:50 flight. all the while you are stuck in that same lovely center seat on a 757!!! damn near 12 hours! humane?

          oh and suppose the ramp is to slippery for the lavatory service vehicles? are you then shit out of luck?

          there has got to be a reasonable solution to this that doesn't entail jailing people in inhumane conditions and doesn't bankrupt airlines. i simply cannot believe that atc is so lame that they cannot reasonably predict when planes will be able to takeoff within ONE hour of leaving the gate.

          ORD, which is famous for weather delays, lines up planes 20+ deep for takeoff. i've been there at least twice when we sat away from the gate for hours waiting for takeoff. didn't atc have the schedule of inbound and outbounds? why then was my airline allowed to board the flight when atc KNEW there would be a several hour delay in takeoff?

          yeah, i want to get there as well. travel is a huge part of how i make money. but #1, i plan my trips with plenty of cushion and #2 i am willing to sacrifice getting there for not getting locked up in an aluminum tube for hours on end in deplorable conditions.

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          • #35
            I had the misfortune to be flying the day of 9-11-01. We were already in the air for a period of time when our pilot announced that he had been ordered to land immediately and that we would be putting down at Detroit Metropolitan Airport. No further explanation was given, and quite a buzz and much concern began to circulate around the cabin. I wasn't too worried as the plane seemed to be functioning quite well. (American Airlines, MD-80? at the time)

            I had a window seat just ahead of the wing, so I could see out. The weather was gorgeous. As we began an approach, I remember telling a nice woman sitting next to me that we were NOT on approach to Detroit Metropolitan and that something really fishy was going on. As I was somewhat familiar with the area, I could see that we were in fact about to land at what is known as Willow Run Airport, at Ypsilanti, Michigan, which as some of you may know, is just a short distance away from Detroit Metropolitan Airport. I also remember telling a man sitting on the aisle next to her that we were not about to land at Detroit as we were told. By then, certain other passengers with window seats were beginning to recognize that we were not coming in to Detroit Metropolitan.

            The lady next to me began to get worried, but I tried to calm her, since there didn't seem to be any problems with the plane itself, and everyone else on the plane seemed to be behaving decently enough.

            After we landed and exited the runway and began taxing, the pilot came back on with an update announcement, starting by apologizing, and then admitting that we were in fact at Willow Run Airport and not Detroit Metropolitan Airport. Maybe he was initially told to go to Detroit Metropolitan and then received a change of orders and directed to Willow Run after he made his initial announcement to us, who knows.

            During taxiing, I could look out and see a few other airliners already parked, from various airlines, and I knew that they did not normally belong there, since Willow Run is not considered much of a destination for the mainline passenger airlines. We were kept aboard the MD-80 for approx. 45 minutes, having been told that there was a shortage of stairs. I remember it being a gorgeous day out, not a cloud in the sky. While we were waiting to get out of the plane, some of the passengers had been on their cell phones, and so this is how we first got word of what was going on. Wow. It was quite an experience.

            I happened to have a close friend who lived in nearby Ann Arbor, Michigan, so I called her and told her I was stranded at Willow Run Airport in Ypsilanti. She was amazed, but she actually dropped what she was doing (her office job) to come get me. I had to wait quite a while for her to arrive and had already been reunited with my luggage by the time she got there. I asked her if she had gotten lost (it's not that far at all between Ann Arbor and Willow Run) but she said no not lost, but that she was very low on gas when I called and she needed to gas up before coming to get me. Well she said that the gas stations were mobbed with long lines by a bunch of panicked morons who thought that there was going to be a gas shortage so it took her a very long time to get gas. Sheesh....

            I ended up spending 4 days at her place. We spent time taking in all the shocking news, and wondering what was going to become of our country and our world.

            Anyways, didn't mean to "hijack" this thread or write a book here, but I guess I did. Sorry.

            Rick G

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Rick G View Post
              Anyways, didn't mean to "hijack" this thread or write a book here, but I guess I did. Sorry.

              Rick G
              Interesting story, and completely relevant to the original question.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Fear_of_Flying View Post
                Interesting story, and completely relevant to the original question.
                So, an airport that has no scheduled airline traffic is able to park and unload several airliners (within 45 minutes, using "emergency stairs"), and even get the bags to passengers, while airports designed to handle hundreds of flights sometimes take upwards of 8 hours to unload planes when it snows.

                Interesting comparrison.

                One might ask why that was, and what was done that day that was not done during snowstorms and thunderstorm outbreaks that caused stranding incidents.
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #38
                  Rick G, i'm the OP and i assure you that you did not hijack the thread. in fact, and without offending anyone else, your post is perhaps the most relevant, as now we at least of a partial idea of what they did.


                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  One might ask why that was, and what was done that day that was not done during snowstorms and thunderstorm outbreaks that caused stranding incidents.
                  a few asswipes crashed a couple of our planes!

                  but seriously, this is what i'm talking about: do what you have to do. willow run is a monster cargo airport with probably little if any infrastructure to handle several hundred pax and their bags. but guess what? they did and no one died.

                  creative thinking. thinking outside the box. bending some rules.

                  i love how in this country at the major airports at least, air stairs are too dangerous especially when they are wet. really? american eagle loads all of its pax using stairs. and in most of the caribbean there are no jetways and you always use stairs, even in middle of a thunderstorm. funny thing is this practice has not opened a flood gate of lawsuits as a result of slip and falls.

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