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PA-28 crash in AR kills four

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  • PA-28 crash in AR kills four

    November 17, 2011, A Perry County, AR plane crash claimed the life of Oklahoma State head women's basketball coach Kurt Budke and assistant coach Miranda Serna along with the pilot and another passenger. Budke and Serna were returning from a recruiting trip in central Arkansas. The Piper PA-28 crashed minutes after takeoff. This event is particular notable in that it is the 2nd air tragedy to strike the Oklahoma State baskeball program in recent memory. In January 2001, a plane carrying staff and players from the school's men's basketball team crashed in a snow storm in Colorado, killing all 10 aboard the plane.

    Four adults and any baggage in a PA-28 sounds like an overloaded aircraft.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
    Four adults and any baggage in a PA-28 sounds like an overloaded aircraft.
    The PA-28 family range from 140 HP to 235 HP. While even the 140 (which except the very few units came with a 150 HP engine) can take 4 "not heavy" adults (with little fuel and close to no baggage), those with 180 HP or more are pretty capable of doing it. The 235, for example, competes with the C-182. And in this case, at least two of the passengers were female, and basketball coaches (so you'd expect them being in a more or less athletic shape).

    That doesn't mean that the airplane wasn't overweight, just that it's hard to tell until you know more about the exact type of plane and what was aboard (in terms of humans, goods, and fuel). That the airplane crashed shortly after take off might be a hint though.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #3
      The PA-28 was a 180 and was piloted by former State Senator Olin Branstetter who along with his wife, owned the aircraft that was built in 1964.

      The pilot was 82 years old. A woman deer hunting who witnessed the accident said that the plane was in "a nose dive and making a swirling motion" and there was no fire. The aircraft made a 6' furrow.

      The tail was # N7746W

      Old, no fire and swirling? Really, first thing came to mind (I have senior moments more too), was did he forget to fuel and just .. I know that is too simple and judgmental isn't it?

      The Senator's wife, the co-owner of the Piper, died with him in the crash. This may have just been a pleasure flight by team supporters and the coaches in pursuit of the "$100 hamburger so there may have been no baggage aboard. The other plane that claimed the lives of OSU team members 10 years ago was a Beech King Air 200 that was donated to the school by a generous alumni.
      Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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      • #4
        Fuel starvation stall/spin?

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        • #5
          In a snow storm the disorientation is a distinct possibility.
          Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by guamainiac View Post
            In a snow storm the disorientation is a distinct possibility.
            There wasn't snow there last night that I know of. I saw a TV report that said they departed around 4:00pm, and I don't think there was significant weather in the area.

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            • #7
              Sorry, I just looked at the first post and saw snow. I thought I missed that on the first read and that was the prior crash of the 200 King Air.
              Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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              • #8
                From the PA-28 180 POH:

                WEIGHTS
                Gross Weight ( lbs) 2400
                Empty Weight (Standard) ( lbs) 1310
                USEFUL LOAD (Standard) (lbs) 1090
                POWER PLANT
                Engine (Lycoming) O-360-A4A
                Rated Horsepower 180
                Rated Speed (rpm) 2700
                Bore (in.) 5.125
                Stroke (in.) 4.375
                Displacement (cu in.) 361.0
                Compression Ratio 8.5:1
                Dry Weight (lbs) 285
                Propeller M76EMMS60
                FUEL AND OIL
                Fuel Capacity (U.S. gal) 50
                Oil Capacity (qts) 8
                Fuel, Aviation Grade (min octane) 91/96
                BAGGAGE
                Maximum Baggage (lbs) 200
                Baggage Space (cu ft) 24
                Baggage Door Size (in.) 20 x 22

                Depending on the amount of fuel on board, I'd say they were on the hairy edge.

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                • #9
                  Perry County Sheriff Scott Montgomery said hunters called emergency officials about 4 p.m. Thursday after they heard the plane apparently in trouble, then saw it nosedive into a heavily wooded area.

                  "The plane was spitting and sputtering and then it spiraled and went nose first into the ground," Montgomery said.

                  "It went straight into the side of the hill," he said.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Deadstick View Post
                    From the PA-28 180 POH:

                    WEIGHTS
                    Gross Weight ( lbs) 2400
                    Empty Weight (Standard) ( lbs) 1310
                    USEFUL LOAD (Standard) (lbs) 1090
                    POWER PLANT
                    Engine (Lycoming) O-360-A4A
                    Rated Horsepower 180
                    Rated Speed (rpm) 2700
                    Bore (in.) 5.125
                    Stroke (in.) 4.375
                    Displacement (cu in.) 361.0
                    Compression Ratio 8.5:1
                    Dry Weight (lbs) 285
                    Propeller M76EMMS60
                    FUEL AND OIL
                    Fuel Capacity (U.S. gal) 50
                    Oil Capacity (qts) 8
                    Fuel, Aviation Grade (min octane) 91/96
                    BAGGAGE
                    Maximum Baggage (lbs) 200
                    Baggage Space (cu ft) 24
                    Baggage Door Size (in.) 20 x 22

                    Depending on the amount of fuel on board, I'd say they were on the hairy edge.
                    With full fuel (50 gal = 310 lb) you still have 195 pounds per passenger (including belongings). That's not much, but considering that three of them were women and two of them were presumably in a more or less athletic shape, it's not an impossible number either. My wife can take a 35lb suitcase and still be below that.

                    With a more realistic wight of 220 lb per passenger (including belongings) you still have room for 34 gal (210 lb) of fuel.

                    And with 220 lb per person + full fuel you'd be just 100 lb above max gross weight.

                    What you call a hairy edge is not such a hard limit to begin with.
                    A PA-28 flies perfectly well at max gross weight, and then a little above that too. It's not like you are hanging from a string and the moment you exceed the string's strength it breaks and you fall to a fiery death. An increase in gross weight (at any weight) makes the plane stall faster, climb slower, burn more fuel, achieve a lower ceiling, and the wing to resist less than its rated loading factor. But 100 lb over 2400 would be hardly noticeable in any of those terms, regardless whether the max gross weight was exceeded.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      With full fuel (50 gal = 310 lb) you still have 195 pounds per passenger (including belongings). That's not much, but considering that three of them were women and two of them were presumably in a more or less athletic shape, it's not an impossible number either. My wife can take a 35lb suitcase and still be below that.

                      With a more realistic wight of 220 lb per passenger (including belongings) you still have room for 34 gal (210 lb) of fuel.

                      And with 220 lb per person + full fuel you'd be just 100 lb above max gross weight.

                      What you call a hairy edge is not such a hard limit to begin with.
                      A PA-28 flies perfectly well at max gross weight, and then a little above that too. It's not like you are hanging from a string and the moment you exceed the string's strength it breaks and you fall to a fiery death. An increase in gross weight (at any weight) makes the plane stall faster, climb slower, burn more fuel, achieve a lower ceiling, and the wing to resist less than its rated loading factor. But 100 lb over 2400 would be hardly noticeable in any of those terms, regardless whether the max gross weight was exceeded.
                      Two women Gabriel, and I hear what you're saying. I'm just a stickler for obeying the laws of weight and balance. Anyway, it looks like an engine failure and resulting stall/spin. Since there was no fire it may well have been fuel starvation.

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                      • #12
                        I have been in a few trips in Cherokee 140's and without baggage this should not have been a problem though our flights were limited to about 300 miles.

                        Only one was noteworthy; on a hot, hot day as we were getting ready to depart our lunch stop, the owner requested that when he gave the signal, I should pull on the flaps.

                        As he said this he turned and proceeded into the take off roll so there was no time to ask questions. He then said that as we hit "that swale (in the grass strip), about 3/4 way down, we'll pop up and ..

                        He was worried, with good cause, that with us and "the wives" and about half tanks, with the rise in temperature (about 100f), it would be iffy.

                        As he called for flaps, the swale compressed the struts, the flaps came on and we ballooned up and over the electric wires at the end of the runway. This I swore was the last time I would fly with him as we climbed ever so slowly away from the site of our "almost flaming wreck". The last time I saw the man, he was downing a few beers and then giving rides to unsuspecting guests that blundered into our flying club picnic. I think I saw his obit years later and he probably defied his own odds and died in his sleep.
                        Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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                        • #13
                          I don't like "cowboy" pilots. Sounds like he was one of those.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            And in this case, at least two of the passengers were female, and basketball coaches (so you'd expect them being in a more or less athletic shape).
                            You're not from Oklahoma, are you...

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                            • #15
                              Bump up a few pounds for the "jock effect" but as past prime, they would not carry the weight and mass so say 200 pounds for the men and 140 for the women?

                              How does that put them weight wise?
                              Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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