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Southwest 737-300 Emergency Landing After Fuselage Tears Open

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Curtis Malone View Post
    That's two lingering questions, isn't it? And is this really the sort of thing that keeps you awake at night?
    It probably is.

    What keeps you awake at night ? Wondering who you can be sarcastic to next possibly ?
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
      It probably is.

      What keeps you awake at night ? Wondering who you can be sarcastic to next possibly ?
      I sleep pretty well, actually. One of the blessings of being past a certain age is that one no longer lets things that he can't do a thing about keep him awake.

      As for sarcasm, Brian, it seems to me opportunities abound. No need to wonder, the moment will present itself soon enough.

      Comment


      • #78
        Was it a Lap Joint related problem is the doubt.
        Think of the brighter side !

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        • #79
          Lap joint? I for one am not going to .. Malone's lap is out of the question.
          Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

          Comment


          • #80
            Hello All.

            Hi all, great forums and thanks to everyone that maintains, supports and runs then. I used to be a member of AD years ago, but never rejoined.
            Anyays, I was a PPL -UK - until about 2002 when I let my license lapse.(Took up yachting lol) ..
            I was though, in 2001, honoured to be allowed to fly the UA 732 Sims in Denver USA. - a 3 day course. - I think stopped after 9/11.-
            The sims were, I beleive mode D, or at least time in them was permitted in my logbook.
            One of the things we did was a manual high dive - sudden decompression.- obviously you do not get the true adrenaline rush or g feelings, but it was a very interesting exercise.
            If I remember correctly (it was nearly 10 years ago)- sequence was- (This was with no AP as was all other flying in the 732 sims at UA on this course)

            Oygen masks on by flight crew -
            Check other flight crew member has done the same !!!.
            Throttles to flight idle
            Deploy speed brakes.
            Aircraft will then naturally start descent.
            Only input on yokes are to contol the airspeed and bank, target is the barber pole on ASI.
            Maintain Barber pole until 10,000 feet.

            Never any issues with descent rate rate etc, it was it it was, so you basically just killed power to idle, deployed brakes, and used the yoke to maintain ASI at the pole and wings level... that was it.
            We did discuss other aircraft below us and were told that atc would take care of that part- and further training would cover automated detection systems etc...

            It was a kindergarden view, but in a very good sim with a first class airline I agree. the bottom line is that the rate of descent is really one of the least things on your mind. I didnt see the worry about a 'pushover' being of great importance ? . it doesnt appear to be actually needed. ? - but again, I am only a PPL (now retired from flying apart from PPLA(M) that had the absolute pleasure of playing at UA sims for 3 days in July 2001.

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            • #81
              wondering if SWA isn't having more than its fair share of fuselage problems as a result of their very high cycle rates. isn't it true that they do far more many t-offs and landings than most airlines...per plane that is?

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              • #82
                Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                It probably is.

                What keeps you awake at night ? Wondering who you can be sarcastic to next possibly ?
                {OFF-TOPIC}
                You know, Brian, I think there are a few issues going on here with respect to the ongoing dispute between Curtis, Evan, and others.

                On one hand:
                - this is an aviation photography site, not a technical site strictly for pilots or aviation professionals. It also has an open and public membership, so the range of comments is necessarily going to be broad, from novice to expert, and comments are not tightly monitored.

                - since there is no verification of a member's credentials, his or her credibility is the sum of his or her posts on this forum, no more, no less.

                - there are many aspects to aviation safety - political, socio-economic, and so forth - that do not require any particular level of training or experience in order to have a valid opinion. Even technical discussions are accessible to some extent by laymen.

                - in any field, there are self-taught individuals who are knowledgable despite their lack of formal training or experience.

                - for these reasons, I don't think anyone's comments need be dismissed out of hand due to lack of an airman certificate.

                On the other hand:
                - there are instances when formal training and experience do trump an internet search, and some deference to the professionals in a field is appropriate. There are those on this forum who don't just claim to have some knowledge to lend to a discussion, but seem often to insist that their opinion is authoritative when in fact it is not. They criticize the bureaucracy of the FAA while simultaneously calling for heightened vigilance and regulations every time there is an incident. They propose sweeping changes to the industry - sometimes across jurisdictions - and even the technical design of aircraft, and become entrenched in positions even when those who really do have some experience in the matter - or simply those who are applying a little common sense - take them to task. What is more, some of these same individuals regularly chastise others for not keeping the discussion technical enough, even though they are not themselves trained technicians.

                Curtis is a bit of an agitator, but at least he keeps some checks and balances on discussions, reminding us that we cannot accept at face value someone's comments just because they present themselves as authoritative. And in the grand scheme of things, his one-line quips or insults are nothing compared to someone like ATFS, who is the very definition of a troll (clear agenda beyond the scope of the forum, personal attacks, off-topic comments, dozens of ideological but baseless hate threads, etc.). While I notice you recently tightened the noose on ATFS, there's just no comparison between someone like him and Curtis. You yourself go alarmingly off-topic at times, recently discussing noisy typewriters while being hung over in your college dorm room in the Polish President thread. Hey, it doesn't bother me, since your posts are fun to read and this forum needs membership. But maybe the mods need to decide what the parameters are?

                You can delete this if you like...

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Fear_of_Flying View Post
                  {OFF-TOPIC}
                  You know, Brian, I think there are a few issues going on here with respect to the ongoing dispute between Curtis, Evan, and others.
                  FOF, PLEASE leave me out of this personal attack issue altogether. I am only here to learn from and/or have discussions with people who have gathered serious knowledge (credentials not necessary) about aviation safety. I have no ongoing dispute with Curtis. He has offered me nothing of substance, therefore I have nothing to dispute. His posts testifies to his character, and I need add nothing to that.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by MCM View Post
                    If Boeing and Airbus say that a standard push over by the autopilot is acceptable, then that is good enough for me.
                    MCM, now that I think of it, I think, guess or whatever, that the smoothness or violence at which the AP would push over might be related to the magnitude of the "gap" between the set speed and the actual speed, and to the speed trend.

                    Next, I'm guessing that if you:
                    - set LVL change, then
                    - set a lower MCP altitude, but
                    - nothing will happen first because the plane is already flying at the MCP speed and the trust and pitch is adequate to keep this cruise condition, then
                    - you close the throttles and set spoilers to flight detent, then
                    - the speed will start to diminish really quickly, much quicker than the usual descent at the TOD, then
                    - the AP will push down to try to bring the airspeed back to the MCP speed, but
                    - if it does as smooth as usual, the speed will keep going down for a while (it takes some 5000 fpm to keep cruise speed or Mmo with idle and full throttles, and it takes a while to achieve 5000 fpm if you push down smoothly), thus increasing the gap between the MCP speed and the actual speed, and with a diminishing airspeed trend, and
                    - the gap might be increased even further if you adjust the MCP speed to Mmo, so
                    - the AP will push down harder, and then harder (not meaning zero G or close, but) until the trend reverts and the actual speed approaches the MCP speed, otherwise
                    - the speed can get critically (dangerously?) slow in the process, thus
                    - the push over made by the AP might not be so smooth after all.

                    What do you think? I'd love to see it in action in a sim. Do you have a load factor (Gs) indicator? Maybe the instructor screen does?

                    Note: Even if the AP will push down harder than normal, even quite harder than normal, inducing panic and vomit to the passengers, I'm not questioning this if the manufacturer and the airline think that that's the safest procedure. As I've said, passenger comfort is important but safety is more important, and it's better that the passengers think that they are going to die than that they do die.

                    Note 2: A very good point I've found about why to use the AP is that if, for any reason (pilot incompetence, system failure, O2 depleted, bottle charged with scuba air instead of O2, etc) the pilot becomes unconscious in the process due to hypoxia, the AP will take care of the rest of the descent and the pilot will probably recover consciousness when the airplane is at a more breathable altitude. If the pilots are manually flying, LOC is death.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      G'day Gabriel,

                      (I double checked who wrote this time :P)

                      Note 2 is one of the strongest arguments for using the autopilot.

                      I must admit I haven't noticed the speed bleed significantly, most likely because the descent has already started before the thrust gets to idle. Thats not to say that it doesn't happen briefly, but the speed is reasonably quickly picked up in the descent. You wind the window down first, then press lvl chg. By the time the thrust reaches idle, the aircraft has already pitched down. That is for my aircraft... others may behave differently. My gut instinct is that yes, the aircraft does pitch at its "maximum autopilot" rate, so to speak, which is likely more than people are used to feeling... but it certainly isn't anything more noticable than in an old elevator... well not to me anyway.

                      The thing is that does change is how far it pitches nose down depending on the speed set in the window and if it needs to accelerate to it - and THAT is something that can be quite intimidating the first time you see it - with the aeroplane not usually flown with more than a couple of degrees nose down, it does feel like you're pointed far too nose low (even though you are not).

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                      • #86
                        I'd rather be light in my seatbelt and have to put up with the smell of barf than be passed out maybe killing a few more brain cells. Sometimes passenger comfort be damned. Passenger survival is priority.

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                        • #87
                          Thanks MCM,

                          I'll leave some homework for you, the next time you are in the sim, if you can try an emergency descent from cruise, please report to us:

                          - The initial cruise speed.
                          - The MCP speed set.
                          - The lowest the speed reached as you retard the throttles and extend the spoilers and the AP pitches down to catch up.
                          - The highest rate of descent (this, I guess, should be somehow early in the process because the AP will need to "overshoot" the final sink rate to catch up the lost speed).
                          - The time it took for the AP since it started pitching down until reaching that highest sink rate.
                          - The lowest load factor during the pitch down, and as a bonus, the highest load factor during the level-off.

                          Thanks in advance!

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            - you close the throttles and set spoilers to flight detent,
                            MCM, are you doing this manually or letting AP determine these settings as well?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              MCM, are you doing this manually or letting AP determine these settings as well?
                              Evan, I'm not MCM but will risk an answer: Both things are done manually.

                              - The AP doesn't have control over the spoilers, so you have to do it manually.

                              - When you set the vertical mode in LVL change, the AP adjusts the pitch as necessary to hold the airspeed set in the MCP speed. You then can:
                              -a- Set a preselected thrust (like climb, cruise, max cont, TOGA, etc) in the thrust rate computer (well, that's the name in the MD-80), and let the autothrottle handle it, or
                              -b- Set any thrust manually, in any case
                              If the thrust set is more than needed to hold the altitude at the MCP speed, the plane will climb as needed to prevent the speed to increase, or if the thrust is less than needed to hold the altitude at the MCP speed, the plane will descend as needed to prevent the speed to diminish, or if the thrust is just Ok to keep the altitude at the present speed, it will neither climb nor descend.

                              For example, say that you are flying at cruise with the vertical mode at altitude hold at 33000 and the autothrottle at the MCP speed of say 300kts.

                              You then set a target altitude of 10000ft, but nothing happens because the AP is waiting for you to say how it must do it, if with vert speed or LVL change.

                              You then set LVL change, nothing happens, because with the current thrust if the AP pitched down the airspeed would increase. Well, something happens: the vertical mode changes to LVL change and the AP probably goes to "clamp" or something like that, meaning that it will not move the thrust levers.

                              You now change the MCP speed to 270kts. The plane will climb!!! (even when you set an altitude below the current one) because it must do so to reduce the speed from the current 300kts to the set 270.

                              You now retard the throttles. The plane will pitch down to keep 270. And now you extend the spoilers. It will pitch down even more to still keep 270 with the new added drag.

                              Ok MCM, how wrong was this?

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                How do you measure G?

                                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                There are ways to do an emergency descent with the passengers barely noticing, and it's not necessarily to do it very smooth and slowly. It could differ a bit regarding the use of speedbrakes, but ir's more or less likie this:

                                - Roll normally to 30 deg of bank.
                                - Don't pull up to hold the altitude. Instead, keep 1 G and the nose will go down. As long as the plane is banked and you keep 1 G the vertical speed (sink rate) will keep increasing simply because it takes more than 1 G to keep a constant vertical speed in a turn.
                                - As the speed starts to build, reduce thrust and push down to keep 1 G (otherwise with the greater speed the plane will pitch up itself).
                                - Once the throttles are at idle, keep doing the same. Use the speedbrakes to avoid overspeeding.
                                - Once the speedbrakes are fully extended and the speed is nearly at max allowable speed (Vmo/Mmo), roll back to level normally.

                                This maneuver achieved three things:
                                It put the plane in an emergency descent quickly.
                                It turned the plane away of the airway, there could be other planes flying below you.
                                It was all done at 1G all the time. The only thing that the passengers will feel is comparable to be steady on a down slope (if you put a ball on the floor of the plane, it will roll forward).
                                Hello Mr Gabriel. A very interesting concept. I don't understand how to keep 1 G , or indeed any other G. Is there a dial to show it, a G meter? I just cant get a mental picture. You roll 30' and where does the G come from? Are you turning the aircraft with the rudder? Or does the aircraft turn towards the direction of bank without rudder? OK, put the brakes up to reduce speed and max allowable is reached, but what if we're still not below breathing altitude?

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