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Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

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  • And what about the pieces of landing gear and fuselage clearly resembling the AA paint scheme laying on the ground outside of the impact area? Someone conveniently had them in a rented truck and deposited them there after the fact?

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    • By the way starch, anyone who knows anything about aircraft knows they are built like a beer can.

      Anyone who knows anything about building construction knows the Pentagon was poured concrete with lots of steel.

      Now, just the hard parts penetrate, like the gear and such. The rest crumbles into an alu ash in the flames.

      Former airframe mech if you care to know.

      Ah! The WTC wings .... yeah, that new curtain wall design is flimsy as a piece of dry toast.
      Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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      • Yes, I came up with that all on my own and it took me two years to construct and why do I bother? Because some should not shoot down someone's oppinnion in some manners. In seriousness, I appreciated Evans 1st paragraph most, which seemed mature and provided some insight to why ILS tampering is difficult for the argument made.

        All I am saying is give some guys some credit sometime. I am aware that a few things can always be wacky... but where there are enough red flags, allow some slack. To me it could have still been both, pilot error or a staged accident. Do air companies not instruct passengers to switch of electronic devices during take-off, landing and other important phases of flight? Why? because interference can be caused and we do not want that for the pilots/intruments. Then there is Electro magnetic Pulse devices and the whole thing around that.

        How come it is so impossible to believe that foul play "may" have been involved. To date no one has any clarity on the validity of the investigations done anyway. So to me it is still an open case. So far it seems the most "possible" attribute is that the pilots should not have landed in the fog. Remove the fog, and the plane would have made a perfect landing? So far, the investigation has not really or fully revealed what caused the crash. Pilot pressure? Fog? Wrong airport for craft, late TOGA call? ATC? Sterile cockpit rule breach, instruments? Wrong radio signals? As soon as a report is investigated, questions are asked by the community on this forum. So please. What caused a whole cabinet of officials to be lost in this crash? Maybe someone can provide a final summary?

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        • Originally posted by starchyme View Post
          In seriousness, I appreciated Evans 1st paragraph most, which seemed mature and provided some insight to why ILS tampering is difficult for the argument made.
          Actually, I said it was not possible.

          The "Die Hard" question comes up again and again. It is a testament to the power of the cinematic plot convenience. Aside from the explanation I gave you, there are a few things you should know. The ILS commonly used in the U.S. is a 1960's-era analogue design. It is a set of narrow radio beams, used as beacons. As I pointed out, the glideslope beacon cannot be "lowered" a la Die Hard 2. Evolving on-board avionics have changed the way the signals are processed and displayed in the cockpit, but a 727-100 can still use the same system as a 787. The only way to tamper with the ILS to direct the aircraft to a lower runway elevation is to tamper with the on-board avionics is some way (theoretically, but perhaps also impossible), but this cannot be done remotely from the ground.

          But take the Die Hard 2 scenario and allow for the impossible, and let the villains magically lower the runway elevation. There are still other protections. The on-board radar altimeters would indicate the actual altitude from the runway and trigger GPWS warnings that would require the crew to abandon the approach and go-around.

          Now, why am I going into all this detail? Because the principal is the same for Polish 101. There is enough on-board avionics beyond the reach of any theoretical conspiracy to allow the crew to accurately gauge their position relative to the ground and even the runway elevation. It cannot be tampered with by the Russians from the ground. And moreover, this was not even a precision approach, so it required a visual sighting of the runway to continue beneath the minimum descent altitude. Russians do not have the technology to "hack" into human brains and create the illusion of runways.

          This crash occurred because the crew did not properly monitor things like altitude and energy, because they initiated the descent late and were never stabilized, because they did not follow proper procedures, and because they had a flawed understanding of the aircraft they were flying and perhaps also the aerodrome they were flying into. Ultimately, it occurred because an undertrained and under-experienced crew undertook a very risky approach when the wise choice was to divert to an alternate and wait out the weather. None of these things allow for any possibility of conspiracy...

          Unless...

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          • And unless the event was captured on a convenience store or gas station video monitor some blocks away, it didn't happen at all. Waterloo? Show me the tapes? Same for the sacking of Dublin by Vikings. Where are the tapes?

            Now, since that aircraft was in a Russian shop for it's overhaul they could have switched up the gear with electronics that they could then control at just the right moment. They did this very same thing in the 70's by intercepting the Xerox machines bound for the US Moscow embassy while they were stored in a Finnish warehouse and rigged the cables to transmit anything on the copier.

            Mister Phelps, your mission should you choose to accept it .. well this thread will self destruct if 15 seconds.
            Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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            • and how did building 7 implode when it was not hit by a plane?
              I'm guessing you have never been to the WTC yourself, but all of the buildings were connected under ground by malls and walkways.

              So yes, it could have been a nefarious plot by secret government operatives to plant bombs, but then mess up the timing of the explosion in building 7, but in order to ensure that there was no evidence, they sent in operatives while everything was burning to trigger the final explosions to collapse the building.

              Or, it could have been the fact that when two fully fueled planes hit the building (several independent friends of mine were there and saw them hit), and the burning fuel ran down the elevator shafts into the underground malls (also corroborated by eye witnesses) and started some very hot fires under the buildings (a very likely outcome). The fires would have been compounded by the energy of the North and South tower collapses (releasing huge amounts of energy) that subsequently melted out the supporting metal and concrete columns (natural result of high temperature fire) resulting in a building 7 collapse.

              How did the military failed four times to protect its air-space?
              That's an easy one. How often did they drill scrambling jets and shooting down airlines in American airspace? (hint: Never) If they never drilled it, odds are very very low that non-integrated agencies would be able to coordinate and execute a complex emergency plan in a short period of time. In fact, I would have been astounded had they actually managed to shoot a single plane down under such circumstances.

              I guarantee you that the WTC affair destroyed many inconvenient records documenting malfeasance in the financial world. However, given the number of financial institutions in the building, and given how much corruption exists on Wall Street, you can pick any building in NYC and I guarantee you there will be malfeasance somewhere within. Again, malfeasance in the buildings is expected due to it's widespread nature. As a cause for an incredibly elaborate conspiracy and scheme? Highly improbable.

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              • Think there may have been diesel fuel to run the emergency generators down there too?

                What of the three "mysterious" white vans that were seen while the feds were reviewing the video in the aftermath. Just the nature of a white van in the weeks before is grounds for misfeasance or malfeasance and proof of our inept government.

                The problem with the government acting is that if and when they do they are guilty of "profiling" or some sort of discriminatory action. I had this odd feeling when I was in the offices of "The Blind Cleric" just weeks before the first bombing. What should I have done or not done? Can you bitch slap someone on a hunch?

                This is not Sakhalin Island Comrade.

                Some people need lessons in the price of freedom.

                Got "Liberty Cabbage" .. ??
                Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

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                • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  (...)

                  This crash occurred because the crew did not properly monitor things like altitude and energy, because they initiated the descent late and were never stabilized, because they did not follow proper procedures, and because they had a flawed understanding of the aircraft they were flying and perhaps also the aerodrome they were flying into. Ultimately, it occurred because an undertrained and under-experienced crew undertook a very risky approach when the wise choice was to divert to an alternate and wait out the weather. None of these things allow for any possibility of conspiracy...

                  Unless...
                  Thank you, Evan, thank you... this sums it up really nicely... But if you believe it will put this thread to rest, you are probably mistaken. Well, I can still hope

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                  • Tu-134 attempted landing in fog in Osh, Kyrgyzstan, broke off one wing, flipped over and caught fire. Amazingly everyone survived.

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                    • Reconstruction of the last seconds based on numbers included in MAK report.
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW5_i...layer_embedded#!

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                      • And another victim of this accident falls, but survives.

                        A Polish military prosecutor shoots himself in the head after defending a military probe into leaks over the 2010 air crash that killed the Polish president.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          And another victim of this accident falls, but survives.

                          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16466522
                          There were accusations of the military tapping phones of the journalists reporting about the crash. I don't know to what extent he was involved in it.

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                          • Originally posted by Fear_of_Flying
                            This was posted to YouTube mid-November. Not really the latest update by your standards (could that be the right word?).
                            I am glad to see that you are setting the bar high for me. I sincerely apologize for not staying on it and missing this one. It will never happen again.

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                            • Ok, I thought this was just another plane that crashed in fog after going below minimums at the demand of a powerful passenger.

                              But clearly- it is a conspiracy:

                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                              • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                And another victim of this accident falls, but survives.

                                http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16466522
                                Hmmm... did he shoot himself OR did the KGB do it to keep him quiet? We need to have a lengthy discussion about this, with diagrams.

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