Brazil Gol CVR link

[scottkin]

I agree, but the Legacy crew inadvertently setting the transponder to STBY and failing to notice that for about one hour despite the 3 indications (for each pilot, 6 in total) continuously showing the condition condition was a required link for the accident to happen. Remove that link, no accident (just as if the ATC had done their job).

And before someone says that the ATC is the primary measure and the TCAS is a backup, what is true, remember that the backups are there to cover the back of primary measures that are not safe or reliable enough by themselves. Remove a backup, and what remains is just not safe enough.

It's the pilots job to operate and monitor the airplanes systems, and the crew of the Legacy failed to do so for about one hour with an system that was required equipment for the operation they were performing.

Even the NTSB agrees that the Legacy crew performed sub-standard. Read the report.

And again, I agree that the main failure was ATC. But except for the discussion and opinions about the "see and avoid" thing, somehow everybody else seems to forget about the factual issue that the failure of the Legacy crew was a required factor for this accident to happen.

You are 100% correct!!!!

[3WE]

You can't reasonably expect pilots to stare outside for hours on end, especially at those speeds and altitudes, especially when they don't know the other aircraft is there.

No spad, I don't expect them to stare for hours, just for the very very brief time that there's traffic at 12-O'clock and 6 miles 1000 feet above/below!

To MCM: Ok, I hear you that "SOP" is that those types of advisories don't happen much at cruse but 1) Just as you say they DO happen in terminal areas, and 2) Enroute frequencies are pretty quiet, so it's not like ATC couldn't point out the closer encounters, and 3) I HAVE heard traffic advisories enroute- including one that asked if a crew had a camera to capture pics of a B2 bomber that they were going to pass!

[Gandalf123]

It may or may not have helped prevent this accident, but if all communications between ATC and aircraft was done in English so that every pilot could understand everything that was being said, maybe there would have been a chance that one of the crews might have picked something up. I thought that was Mandatory all over the world. Clearly I must have been mistaken. Or am I?

[Spad13]

It may or may not have helped prevent this accident, but if all communications between ATC and aircraft was done in English so that every pilot could understand everything that was being said, maybe there would have been a chance that one of the crews might have picked something up. I thought that was Mandatory all over the world. Clearly I must have been mistaken. Or am I?

It's not mandatory. You can hear plenty of French in Montreal. In fact, I'm always amazed how quickly the controllers switch from French to English and back.

[Gandalf123]

I think flight safety would be greatly improved if all air communications were done in English so that all pilots wherever they are can understand what is being said between ground and all aircrft in the area.

[Gabriel]

I think flight safety would be greatly improved if all air communications were done in English so that all pilots wherever they are can understand what is being said between ground and all aircrft in the area.

That would be true IF both pilots and controllers of other mother languages would be highly proficient in listening and speaking English.

But what follows the IF is false.

Learning good English skills takes much longer than going from zero hours to ATP.

[Bok269]

No spad, I don't expect them to stare for hours, just for the very very brief time that there's traffic at 12-O'clock and 6 miles 1000 feet above/below!

From what I understand, an aircraft tracking 1000 above/below will look like they are at the same altitude until just before the two aircraft meet. Thus, if there is a problem, by the time a pilot would realize that the two are on a collision course, it would be too late to avoid a collision, making looking outside a wasted effort.

[Gandalf123]

That would be true IF both pilots and controllers of other mother languages would be highly proficient in listening and speaking English.

But what follows the IF is false.

Learning good English skills takes much longer than going from zero hours to ATP.

That is precisely what I am suggesting, and make that IF a WHEN, no matter how much longer it takes. They have to be highly proficient in English before they can obtain their ATP or qualify as ATC. That is the requirement in the USA, Europe, Australia and South Africa. If they are not, they may not fly a plane into those countries.

Then one day you might get this scenario:

Plane A Is heading from Beacon X to beacon Y at FL 370.

Plane B gets on the radio and reports in, “Hello this is Plane B at FL 370 and over Beacon Y.”

Controller: "Hello Plane B, Identified and cleared direct Beacon X.” (No change in altitude given so Plane B stays at FL 370)

Plane A: Hello! Somebody is heading a plane straight at us on the same flight path, at the same flight level. “Ooooh Mr. Controller, you idiot! What do you think your doing?!?!?!....... Oops..... Er, Mr Controller, requesting FL 360???”

I am suggesting that it could become as simple as monitoring the radios to pick up and, perhaps, prevent a dreadful, and potentially disastrous mistake from happening. But this can only be done if everybody speaks 1 common language.

Does anybody think it is a lot to ask if it is going to improve air safety just that little bit more?

[Gabriel]

That is precisely what I am suggesting, and make that IF a WHEN, no matter how much longer it takes. They have to be highly proficient in English before they can obtain their ATP or qualify as ATC. That is the requirement in the USA, Europe, Australia and South Africa. If they are not, they may not fly a plane into those countries.

Then one day you might get this scenario:

Plane A Is heading from Beacon X to beacon Y at FL 370.

Plane B gets on the radio and reports in, “Hello this is Plane B at FL 370 and over Beacon Y.”

Controller: "Hello Plane B, Identified and cleared direct Beacon X.” (No change in altitude given so Plane B stays at FL 370)

Plane A: Hello! Somebody is heading a plane straight at us on the same flight path, at the same flight level. “Ooooh Mr. Controller, you idiot! What do you think your doing?!?!?!....... Oops..... Er, Mr Controller, requesting FL 360???”

I am suggesting that it could become as simple as monitoring the radios to pick up and, perhaps, prevent a dreadful, and potentially disastrous mistake from happening. But this can only be done if everybody speaks 1 common language.

Does anybody think it is a lot to ask if it is going to improve air safety just that little bit more?

It already IS requested that all ATPs and controllers have a sufficient English skill (also non-ATPs flying internationally). Any ATP addressed in English MUST reply in English and any ATC addressed in English MUST reply in English. What today exist is the freedom for them to communicate in the local language.

Now:

1) You've said:
"if all air communications were done in English so that all pilots wherever they are"
ATPs (and non-ATPs flying internationally) are a minority.

2) USA, Australia and South Africa? What are you talking about? They are English speaking countries, didn't you notice? If you have to choose between the local language or the international one, there you have English as the only choice.

3) The reality is that language is a problem. One thing is to pass an English exam and another thing is to understand this very fast conversation between a Texan pilot and a Missouri controller over a less than high fidelity radio:

“Hello this is Plane B at FL 370 and over Beacon Y.”

"Hello Plane B, Identified and cleared direct Beacon X.”

(specially when it would be more like

"heavyclippertwothreefourzerowithyouthreeseventyovermarlo"
"rogerclippertwothreefourzerocleareddirectcalur"

There have been and are numerous incidents already for communication problems. If you force all communications to be done in a language in which pilots and controllers don't feel comfortable (even if the pass the minimum required skill) you risk to create more incidents that what you'd save.

I say let them communicate it whatever they find easier, and let the ATC doing its job, plus conflict detecting equipment in the ATC facility, plus TCAS handle the separation.

4) The GOL accident would not have been prevented because GOL was with sector A and Legacy with sector B (ironically, both were already instructed to swap to the other sector frequency, but neither had complied with that yet)

[Airbus_A320]

Then one day you might get this scenario:

Plane A Is heading from Beacon X to beacon Y at FL 370.

Plane B gets on the radio and reports in, “Hello this is Plane B at FL 370 and over Beacon Y.”

Controller: "Hello Plane B, Identified and cleared direct Beacon X.” (No change in altitude given so Plane B stays at FL 370)

Plane A: Hello! Somebody is heading a plane straight at us on the same flight path, at the same flight level. “Ooooh Mr. Controller, you idiot! What do you think your doing?!?!?!....... Oops..... Er, Mr Controller, requesting FL 360???”

Controller:


As stated before the problem here wasn't the controller speaking English, it was the fact that the controllers didn't know what they were looking at on the screen and the fact that some transmissions wouldn't even make it to far away planes, no matter what language they were in.

[Gandalf123]

Gabriel, there is only one litle wee snag in this case. TCAS didn't work, nor did ATC. Seperation wasn't handled and 154 people paid the price.

Airbus A320. I am well aware that the controller missinterprited what his screen was telling him.

I am not saying that what I am suggesting is absolutely fool proof. Clearly neither is Tcas, not ATC. It's just another measure of safety one might considder.

BTW, since when is SA an English Speaking country?

[mzk49o1]

Since it became a republic. South Africa actually has around ten official languages, English being one of them.

Besides, I though English was already the universal language in the aviation world?

[Gandalf123]

Since it became a republic. South Africa actually has around ten official languages, English being one of them.

Besides, I though English was already the universal language in the aviation world?

Yer. Eleven official languages to be exact. Can you imagine what our air frequencies would be like if we had every pilot talking his own language?

What country in Africa speaks English anyway, yet all air communications in Africa are conducted in English. Southern Africa anyway.

[A340-500]

I was born in Brazil, live and work here. It's absolutely undeniable the ATC played a major role in this accident. Nevertheless, the Legacy crew was, indeed, partly responsible due to its lack of proper "airmanship".

I fly to Europe about 3 times a month, and communications are quite a problem with Atlantico and Dakkar remote controls. What do we do ? SLOP, position reports on current + IFBP frequencies + air to air + turning on whatever lights might help being spot by other planes and strict adherence to flight plan.

These guys spent a very, very long time without communicating to ATC, and no further action was taken to avoid traffic. 121.5 is monitored by ALL airliners in Brazil. In the Emergency Tab of Jeppessen, vol. 1 (J-Aid), the correct procedures (and differences, if any) are well explained.

What I'm trying to say here is that this accident should've been avoided, if not by ATC (very poor training, lack of initiative and skills), then by the Legacy crew (poor airmanship).

Communication is, indeed, a huge factor on a great number of accidents. Why not expedite the mandatory use of CPDLC ? Let's say, if you're RVSM capable then you gotta have CPDLC available as well, or something like this.

The one thing we brazilians truly regret is the lesson not learned. The ATC problems are even aggravated after this accident. Separation has been increased to a "unbelievable" 40 nm on sector handoffs (Area Center to Terminal Control, that is) and life is getting harder for us.