Air Canada Airbus "Close Encounter" With F-15...???

[gwillie]

Local (YYT) CBC radio news this morning was carrying a story about an Air Canada Airbus having had a "close encounter" earlier this week with a Canadian Forces F-15 near Florida....

From what I remember of the item, AC 935 was coming out of Cuba when it came within 2 km - at the same altitude - of the F-15. The Air Canada captain subsequently reported a near mid-air collision to the FAA. The story contained sound bites from a female FAA spokesperson confirming the incident, identifying the F-15 as a Canadian Forces aircraft participating in training exercises over Florida, and that the incident was under investigation. There was also a statement indicating that flight tracking had shown a marked altitude change by the Air Canada plane.

Here's the bigger story: Where has this story gone?

Not on CBC website...no mention on major Cdn media sites...Google=nada!

I called the local station...the story came to them from "Toronto" this morning, but has since disappeared from their "playlist".

Hmmmmmm.

Any sleuths out there want to do a little digging?

[B757300]

Canada doesn't fly the F-15. They use the CF-18.

[flyboy2548m]

Canada doesn't fly the F-15.

Especially anywhere near Florida and/or Cuba.

[gwillie]

Especially anywhere near Florida and/or Cuba.

maybe you missed
a Canadian Forces aircraft participating in training exercises over Florida

[B757300]

And maybe you missed that Canada doesn't use the F-15?

[Kell Kong]

And maybe you missed that Canada doesn't use the F-15?

Apparently Canada do use F-15 over their new territory, Florida... Gosh that was about time somebody took control... Next state will be Arizona, then Quebec...

[gwillie]

Well, so much for my high expectations that there just might be enough intelligent expertise on this board to produce some real investigatory result.

Taking potshots from the sidelines - soured sarcasm at best - well, I think that says it all. (Obviously unbeknownst to some on this board, both joint military training exercises and specific logistical training (eg low altitude flight training by US aircraft over Labrador) DO occur under mutual agreements from both sides of the 49th....

Granted that it was early on a Saturday morning that I heard the story (but, on the other hand I hadn't spent my Friday evening drowning any sorrows, and therefore was reasonably well-rested)...I had no pills to take and, furthermore, when the story failed to "appear" on the third consequtive newscast, I called the station and spoke to the newsreader who confirmed my experience (no, we didn't discuss the technicalities of whether it was an F-15 or F-18).........the fact remains - the story appeared and just as quickly disappeared.

So, I'll leave it out there...surely, someone here has the expertise (and intelligence) to look in the right places and produce some actual explanation...

[Kell Kong]

Well, so much for my high expectations that there just might be enough intelligent expertise on this board to produce some real investigatory result.

Taking potshots from the sidelines - soured sarcasm at best - well, I think that says it all. (Obviously unbeknownst to some on this board, both joint military training exercises and specific logistical training (eg low altitude flight training by US aircraft over Labrador) DO occur under mutual agreements from both sides of the 49th....

Granted that it was early on a Saturday morning that I heard the story (but, on the other hand I hadn't spent my Friday evening drowning any sorrows, and therefore was reasonably well-rested)...I had no pills to take and, furthermore, when the story failed to "appear" on the third consequtive newscast, I called the station and spoke to the newsreader who confirmed my experience (no, we didn't discuss the technicalities of whether it was an F-15 or F-18).........the fact remains - the story appeared and just as quickly disappeared.

So, I'll leave it out there...surely, someone here has the expertise (and intelligence) to look in the right places and produce some actual explanation...

Gwillie, I do not think that people doubt your seriousness, but most likely the quality of information related by the medias, generally speaking.. So far Airbus have not issued any information on this, just wait and see... And I do not think they will in case of your suspicions regarding the complot are true..

[FireLight]

So, I'll leave it out there...surely, someone here has the expertise (and intelligence) to look in the right places and produce some actual explanation...

There are those on this board who potentially would have some insight into this, whether true or not, as they work for Air Canada. However, in order to persuade them to comment, they would either have to be interested enough to look into it or come across the information in their work, but then they might be restricted in terms of what they can say, if anything. As far as story goes, I haven't seen anything in the media or Google or otherwise. I doubt if Air Canada would want a whole lot of publicity about this if true, and if true, it may turn out that it really wasn't that exceptional an issue. Many of the incidents where there is incursion into minimum flight approach limits do not reach the level of media awareness. They get reported to the FAA and the facts may trickle out down the road or in some official report. As a general rule, any initial report about an incident most likely has some errors in it (significant or otherwise) and as the facts become known there is a tendency to find things better or worse than the initial report. Potentially this story faded because the facts didn't support the significance of the story or there were other circumstances that no one is really that keen for us to hear.

As noted before, Canada doesn't own any F-15's, so it immediately brings the accuracy of the information into question. I doubt if the US Air Force wants to see any more news about F-15's involved in anything, especially as they just lost 2 over the Gulf of Mexico. As far as Navy F-18's, maybe, but it makes it that much harder to track down the story.

Our CF-18's do fly to the states for exercises. I can't say I know too much about their flights to bases on the east coast.

If I look up information on them the last thing I can find is when one of them lost part of it's tail (30 x 90 cm piece of the rudder) flying from Cold Lake, Alberta for upgrades in Mirabel, Quebec a little over a week ago. But even this wasn't that easy to find as you need to use the right key words when searching the CBC website, and have heard about the story on the radio early in the morning - much like you did. (Now there are lots of stories on Google, but it took a while) Maybe that will happen with this story.



http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/02/15/jet-rudder.html

So your story remains a mystery. If you find anything out, let us know.

[DaveGF4G]

This whole story sounds like BS to me

[gwillie]

This whole story sounds like BS to me

Well, thank you, Dave for such an insightful, well-researched, meticulously documented, thoroughly thought-out, and carefully considered reply. Next time, I must remember to PM you first - before I post - to get your unabashed, straight-from-the-shoulder intellectually measured opinion on the validity of the subject.

Methinks I, too, should offer a considered opinion of my own. Dave, why don't you consider joining this group (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/) where, I'm sure, your puerile commentary will be ideally suited (and better accepted).

[DaveGF4G]

Gwillie.... considering the fact that I have over 1800 hours in the F-4Phantom and spent 3 years as a USAF exchange officer in Canada.... I can tell you that Canada DOES NOT HAVE F-15s.... you IDIOT .... the story is BULLSHIT and if you keep insisting on it being true MOVE YOUR ASS TO MEXICO where they believe BAFOONS LIKE YOU

[chrisburns]

There are often canadian air force flights in the US, just the other day they were doing practice landings and takeoffs and so forth in Fargo. I have also seen canadian planes often in Colorado Springs as well as Florida. They could have been doing an airshow too.

[el]

Gwillie.... considering the fact that I have over 1800 hours in the F-4Phantom and spent 3 years as a USAF exchange officer in Canada....

With that history I find it interesting that you would believe in 737s and MD 80s being able to dump fuel.

[el]

So far Airbus have not issued any information on this, just wait and see...

Why on earth would anyone expect Airbus to issue a statement on this incident which at best could be described as a near-miss?

[Kell Kong]

Why on earth would anyone expect Airbus to issue a statement on this incident which at best could be described as a near-miss?

I am then telling you why on earth... In the eventuality this near-miss really happened, then I will have access to the report, it is that simple...And the other eventuality that some aircraft system was proven to be at fault (TCAS for instance), or a procedure was not properly followed by the crew, then OIT/FOT would be issued. I know that it is a lot of supposition, but that was fully in line with Gwillie's request. So far nothing from this side..

[el]

In the eventuality this near-miss really happened, then I will have access to the report, it is that simple...

You're talking about a seperation of 2 km (interestingly kilometers not miles).

And the other eventuality that some aircraft system was proven to be at fault (TCAS for instance), or a procedure was not properly followed by the crew, then OIT/FOT would be issued.

Granted.

[CdnBSGfan]

FWIW, This story did make the 7:00am EST CBC Radio News "World Report"on Saturday, 23 February. It was heard in Halifax, at least. Not sure if it was the national newscast or regional. The reporter's name was Phillip Lee-Shanok. His e-mail is leeshanp@cbc.ca

There has been no publication of the story on the CBC website, nor has there been any response to email inquiries sent to the reporter and the newsroom.

So - the story, at least, was broadcast. The incident - no way to tell, as it hasn't appeared anywhere else.

[DaveGF4G]

you just crawl out on the wing with a screwdriver and punch some holes

[DaveGF4G]

But seriously, it is just not conceivable to me that a jet airliner cannot dump fuel in an emergency.

[Moose135]

But seriously, it is just not conceivable to me that a jet airliner cannot dump fuel in an emergency.

The only reason to dump fuel in an emergency is to get below max landing weight - if the aircraft is legal to land at max takeoff weight, there is no requirement for a fuel dump capability. If it's a no-sh*t, gotta land right now emergency, you land at the higher weight. If it's something that doesn't require an immediate landing (gear problem, etc) you can orbit until you reduce fuel so you have a lower landing weight, but there is no need for a fuel dump.

[gwillie]

Davey, I believe I've overestimated your capabilities. Rather than join the Air Cadets over there (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/), I think it's best you just go home (unless you promise to sit quietly in the corner and learn about how some passenger aircraft have fuel dumping abilities and others don't).

el, about the kilometres vs miles, CBC has national standards for lots of terminology. Because metric measurements are standard in Canada, they've become the CBC standards for reporters/news readers etc.

CdnBSGfan - Welcome! The "World Report" is a full package coming out of Toronto. NL gets it hourly between 6:30 and 8:30am. I suspect it's updated through the AM and played "live" to the regions. I missed it and only heard the item on a locally produced newscast at 9:30 and again at 10:30. By 11:30 it had disappeared. Nice to know someone else on herepicked it up.

Moose135 - Nice to see you educating the boy.<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_460748", true); </SCRIPT>

[DaveGF4G]

Do not think for a moment this excuses your assinine story about Canadian F-15s

[gwillie]

Davey, if name-calling is giving it your best, then first, best you learn how to spell the word (http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Buffoon) correctly.

[DaveGF4G]

you ARE one

[FireLight]

Any airplane can dump fuel. You just crawl out on the wing with a screwdriver and punch some holes :lol:

I guess that's what the backseater in the F-4 is for? :p I would gather it becomes a little tougher to do in flight though. ---

[FireLight]

gwillie/DaveGF4G

I think you guys might be losing the plot here. It certainly isn't helping to resolve the original question at all. :roll:

[Tucsonman]

you guys really crack me up!

here i am thinking this forum was a medium for the intellegentsia to dicuss things about aviation safety. Not a pissing contest.

[ptbodale]

Air Canada 965 - 19 February 08
HAV-YYZ fin 283 (A319)

On climb out through FL305 for FL350 the flight reported to ATC that they had received a TCAS warning of an aircraft behind and climbing. The F/O observed a F15 (or similar type military flighter) approx 1 nm off the right wing of the A319.

[DaveGF4G]

They then heard the words "fox two" over the radio and watched in horror as their left wing errupted in flames

[CdnBSGfan]

From the horses' mouth...

From: Neta.SCC@forces.gc.ca
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Feb 2008 14:17:02.0598 (UTC)

Good morning.

An airspace de-confliction issue is being investigated following the
reporting of an occurrence on last Tuesday afternoon, approximately 21
nautical miles S-SE of Key West, Florida involving a Canadian civilian
airliner and a CF-18 Hornet aircraft from 4 Wing Cold Lake. The
occurrence is currently under investigation.

Thank you.

Captain Steve Neta
Acting Senior Public Affairs Officer
1 Canadian Air Division and
Canadian NORAD Region Headquarters
204-833-2500 ext 2030
mailto:neta.scc@forces.gc.ca

[gwillie]

So, now we might have the source of the "F-15" error.

CBC is acting tighter than a drum on this one....WHY? A little pressure from NORAD?


Obviously, then, the training exercises were NORAD's....which also obviously involves King George's Homeland Security Crew...and, from north of the 49th, we've all seen the kowtowing to that crowd by all levels of King Stephen's regime.

[CdnBSGfan]

Gwillie.... considering the fact that I have over 1800 hours in the F-4Phantom and spent 3 years as a USAF exchange officer in Canada.... I can tell you that Canada DOES NOT HAVE F-15s.... you IDIOT .... the story is BULLSHIT and if you keep insisting on it being true MOVE YOUR ASS TO MEXICO where they believe BAFOONS LIKE YOU

So.... I'm new here, and obviously have no knowledge of any prior beefs people may have had with one another, but... is this the general temperment of the people around here? I can't quite see why Dave is so out of sorts! 1800 hrs in an F4 Phantom... with that temper, I hope it wasn't armed! :o

GWillie's initial report was based upon his memory of one newscast, so it's not surprising that a minor detail (F-15 vs. CF-18 ) was messed. But the story is not "bullshit", as we've now had confirmation from both the Canadian Forces and, obliquely, from Air Canada (their answer was "Who are you, and why do you want to know?").

BTW, I'm currently living in Mexico, I don't know what a "Bafoon" is, and as a Canadian, well, I'm just hoping we can all get along.... ;)

Cheers from here,
M.

[z740]

Air Canada 965 - 19 February 08
HAV-YYZ fin 283 (A319)

On climb out through FL305 for FL350 the flight reported to ATC that they had received a TCAS warning of an aircraft behind and climbing. The F/O observed a F15 (or similar type military flighter) approx 1 nm off the right wing of the A319.
So it took us 28 tries to get an educated response. :roll:
Thank you Dale!:)

-Chris

[flyboy2548m]

here i am thinking this forum was a medium for the intellegentsia to dicuss things about aviation safety. Not a pissing contest.

Whatever gave you that idea?

[FireLight]

I'm pleased to see ptbodale come through in the end, which I thought he might, and CdnBSGfan rounds things out nicely.

All's well that ends well. :roll: