2 Private Aircraft Collide Over Los Angeles

[FlyingPhotog]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/20/planes.collide/index.html

Two private planes collided Sunday over a Los Angeles suburb, killing four people, including two on the ground, police and the Federal Aviation Administration reported.

The collision occurred about 3:35 p.m. Sunday (6:35 p.m. ET) in Corona, California, about 40 miles east of downtown Los Angeles, FAA spokesman Allen Kenitzer said.

The crash left wreckage strewn along a commercial strip near the Riverside Freeway, Jessica Martinez, a worker at a nearby restaurant, told CNN.

Preliminary reports indicated a motorist and a pedestrian were killed on the ground, Kenitzer said. One of the aircraft had been identified as a two-seat, Cessna 150, but the second plane involved was unknown Sunday afternoon, Kenitzer said.

Too sad for them.

[Dmmoore]

The only thing worse than a midair and the almost always fatal results is when the event involves the deaths of innocent people.
RIP.

[Kjell Engkrog]

RIP indeed.

News reports here says that the the occupants of the C150 fell out, and hit parked cars. Here`s one wing

http://www.jetphotos.net/user-uploads/Wing.jpg

And a video, actually it`s a few stills put together. Just ignore the crap in the beginning, and the Norwegian voiceover has nothing to add either...

http://atvs.vg.no/player/?id=14086

Cheers,

[screaming_emu]

Yikes, midairs are one of the few things that really scare me in a plane. Pretty much fire, midairs, and parts falling off the plane. And all of those are very closely related. I've had 3 near misses and I think I removed at least a square inch of seat cover on each occasion.

[ATrude777]

That is quite an intact wing. Not knowing the structure of Cessna's, can I say thats pretty good for a crash or are wings designed to be that well structered?

I couldn't imagine falling out into the parking lot.

Alex

[screaming_emu]

That is quite an intact wing. Not knowing the structure of Cessna's, can I say thats pretty good for a crash or are wings designed to be that well structered?

I couldn't imagine falling out into the parking lot.

Alex


Those things are strong enough to put up with what my former students put the planes through, so they're pretty strong!

[Digger]

Google Earth screenshot.

News stories give an address on Wardlow Road, (circled in red). Airport is at the top of the screen. Wardlow Road measures approximately one mile from the airport, and runs roughly parallel to the runway.

Non-towered airport.

A 150 and a 172 were involved, so this wasn't the classic high wing/low wing encounter.

From the story in the LA times (bold is mine):

"They looked like they would run into each other," said the off-duty Orange County sheriff's deputy. Champion thought it might be an optical illusion -- that the two planes might look close but actually be at different altitudes.

An instant later, however, he saw the northbound plane strike the other aircraft, Champion said.

It reminded him of an automobile collision. "It was almost like what you see in a T-bone traffic accident if someone runs a red light," he said.


One on downwind, and the other entering the pattern?

Simple failure on the part of both pilots to 'see and avoid'?



http://www.jetphotos.net/user-uploads/corona(Small).jpg

[JordanD]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7201059.stm
Another story.
Ugh this is what scares me so much about fields with only a CTAF. I fly out of KJVY, just north of Louisville every time I go flying. No matter what direction the winds are reported, what runway the UNICOM operator says is being used/preferred, one or two jackasses will ALWAYS be out there taking off/landing with a tailwind. I know of at least one close call with a Champ and the 172 that my flight school used to own. It honestly scares me, especially considering there's numerous Falcons, Citations, Learjets, and King Airs operating out of that field regularly. Sometimes a majority of the pilots will be using a tailwind runway and/or flying the wrong pattern. Another half of the time they'll make some halfassed radio call that tells me nothing.
Ok rant over, but this is a serious safety issue that pilots need to do something about.

[bradhig]

creepy having bodies fall from the sky.

[avro_arrow_25206]

creepy having bodies fall from the sky.
A Nissan salesman, Pete Argueta, said he saw a colleague and customers dashing for cover, screaming: "Run! Run! Run!"

The cockpit of one of the planes landed on his dealership, with a dead body inside, he told the LA Times.
Wow

[Willezurmacht]

Creepy indeed. I have a couple of pics of the impression made in the ground by Zeppelin crews that fell out of their airship during the bombing of London during WWI. Must have been a foot deep, shaped exactly like the bodies.

[MikaelCLT]

if i was ever in a situation like that, let me die from the A2A.

All in all, something could have been avioded, but so it goes.

God rest their souls.

[Crunk415balla]

Heard about this, damn scary. I've had a near miss, and I'll tell you everytime I'm flying through the totally congested airspace over the Bay Area, I'm constantly scanning anticipating an aircraft to appear comming right at me.

The near miss I did have, ironicly, happened the one time traffic was so heavy my CFI elected we go "Flight Following" with Norcal Approach. A lot of good that did when they repeatedly issued our traffic alert to the wrong aircraft.:roll:

[Tbun]

Creepy indeed. I have a couple of pics of the impression made in the ground by Zeppelin crews that fell out of their airship during the bombing of London during WWI. Must have been a foot deep, shaped exactly like the bodies.

Post these gems, Please! :)

[tds]

The near miss I did have, ironicly, happened the one time traffic was so heavy my CFI elected we go "Flight Following" with Norcal Approach. A lot of good that did when they repeatedly issued our traffic alert to the wrong aircraft.:roll:I have a recently developed morbid interest in MACs. Care to provide further details?

[Crunk415balla]

Ok, here is the story. We didn't write ATC up because every pilot at SQL insists that ATC will save our asses more times than they'll lead us astray, so as payback we should be forgiving on mistakes that were likely just a stressed controler making a verbal mistake. I thought this was pretty dangerous, but my CFI insisted somewhere down the line, a controller may save my certificate when I screw up.

We had just flown the "Bay Tour" North from KSQL through the SFO class B airspace. We were now outside of the Class B, but it was around 5pm on a beautiful day, so we decided to switch over to NORCAL Approach after a few fly-bys past the Golden Gate Bridge and Alcatraz, and we requested flight following so they'd keep an eye on us on their radar. We turned East towards the former Alameda Naval Air Station at about 3,000 feet and headed towards Concord/Buchanan Field(KCCR). When we called NORCAL over downtown San Francisco in our 172, N3504P, we were told "Caution 40 Papa and 35 Papa on frequency". My CFI chuckled and I read back the squak and added, "we'll keep our ears open". Over Alemeda, ATC made a call to another Cessna. Casual at first. But they became somewhat frantic. They went something like this:
ATC: "Skyhawk 40P, traffic at your 9 o'clock, 2 miles, same altitude, report him in sight."
40P: "Uhh...we don't have him."
ATC: "40P that traffic is now about a mile and a half to your left same altitude, Cessna 172, report him in sight."
40P: "We don't see him, ma'm!"
35P: "Is that call for Skyhawk 35P?"
ATC: "40P, he's less than one mile same altitude, 9 O'clock, TRAFFIC ALERT!"

So I'm actively listening while trying not to scare my mom in the back, and something doesn't sound right to me, so I check my 9 and low and behold, a Cessna 172 headed right at us, SAME altitude, flashing his landing light as if he's hoping it'd catch our attention. I'm thinking "Turn or something before you T-bone us, idiot!". I hit my CFI on the shoulder and I jam the throttle. I point up with my thumb, suggesting we climb without alerting my mom. He shakes his head and gives a thumbs up, suggesting that the boost of speed would get us past him. The other 172 slowed down it seemed, I saw him drop a notch of flaps and poke the nose up a tad, then he passed anywhere between 55-80 feet behind us...still pretty much same altitude, give or take a foot or two. I will NEVER in my whole life forget turning around as they went by, and seeing 2 pilots in sunglasses staring right into my eyes as they passed by, with a look in disbelief on their faces. It seemed like they went by in slow motion. I have somewhat of a frozen-frame picture in my head.

My CFI keyed the mic the second they went by. "Hey lady, 04P just had a 172 wizz by 20 feet off our tail, thanks for the heads up. We'll go it alone from here."

ATC replied, almost 10 seconds later, in a voice like she was in a total daze "Roger 04P....Sqauk VFR frequency change approved...have a safe one."

And that was that. She's only human, and I might make a dangerous mistake one day down the line, and hopefully karma will swing my way and ATC will cut me a break. Who knows.

[tds]

Thanks Chasen... sounds unpleasant. One thing - if the other 172 was actually trying to attract your attention (i.e. they saw you before you saw them), any idea why they let it get so close? Did they misjudge their evasive action?

[Crunk415balla]

You know, I don't know what he was thinking (or smoking for that matter), but I do know I've never heard of any practice to flash your landing light at traffic...if you have to do that, its probably a good time to manuever around the traffic! He was flashing by the time I looked over, so he must have seen us for some time.

He should have been tuned into NORCAL, too. Its no law, and he didn't HAVE to, but when you're in airspace like that full of airliners from 2 big airports (SFO, OAK) and you're surrounded by VFR aircraft, its always a good idea to tune in, even if you never talk to anyone. I always at least have NORCAL running in the background when I cross the bay and penetrate that endless stream of WN 737s headed into OAK. Had he been on NORCAL, he would have heard that the "other traffic" had no idea where he was.

[Gabriel]

Crunk415balla

While at the end it was very close, it seems that both of you both had the situation fairly in control. You had enugh time to think of the manouver you'd do, comment it with your instructor, decide to do it smooth enough not to worry your mother and monitor the outcome to verify that it would be close bot not too close. And the other plane had you in sight and controlling the situation we don't know how long before you got him.

I had a close call that, in a sense was not as serious because the separation was bigger, but at the same time it was more serious because we never saw each other in time to safely avoid a potential crash (the other pilot never saw me before, during or after the near miss).

I was flying in a VFR corridor below the TMA Baires. That corridor has an altitude of 1000ft and overflights several airports, some of them controlled. So you enter and exit controlled airspace several times.

As I approached one of those towered airports I called the tower which instructed me to keep south of the runway, what I did.

A couple of minutes later, and when I was well within the ATZ, I saw a Cessna 182 crossing just in front of me from left to right. It was probably a bit more than your 80ft, perhaps twice as much, and I immediatly noticed that we were not going to crash so I did nothing, but I really doubt that if we were going to crash I would have had time to manouver and successfully avoid the crash.

I could clearly see the two guys in the Cessna looking stright ahead, they knew of our existance.

About two seconds later I crossed through the Cessna wake turbulence, so I knew we were exactly at the same altitude. We flwe through the same spot of sky a couple of seconds appart without knowing we were doing so!

At first I blamed the other pilot. We were in controled airspace and I had a clearance. He entered controlled airspace without getting a clearance.

But then I relized that we were VFR, and despite the msitakes made by the other crew, I screwed it up big time (and my instructor too) by failing at "see and avoid". It was a simple matter of chance that we didn't crash into each other, and you cannot relay on chance to keep you safe.

[Digger]

Some of the 172s I flew in while in CAP were equipped with landing lights that could be set to flash, for the very purpose they served that day--to make the aircraft more visible. Given that the other guys didn't really take any evasive action, I'd question whether the pilot was manually flashing the landing light. Perhaps they never actually saw you any earlier than you saw them?

[3WE]

Some of the 172s I flew in while in CAP were equipped with landing lights that could be set to flash, for the very purpose they served that day--to make the aircraft more visible. Given that the other guys didn't really take any evasive action, I'd question whether the pilot was manually flashing the landing light. Perhaps they never actually saw you any earlier than you saw them?Someone sitting there flashing their lights but holding heading, altitude waiting for you to get out of the way does sound a bit crazy, although crazier things have occurred!

The only other thing I'd say is that perhaps they WERE flasing their lights, hoping you'd see them, but that their "view of the situation" was 1) they didn't see you either, or 2) they did see you and saw that they really weren't going to hit, and maybe it didn't seem like that much of a close call to them???

[Willezurmacht]

I will try to scan those pics this weekend

[Digger]

It also occurs to me that perhaps they were monitoring ATC, but not actually talking to them, and the flashing of theit light was an attempt to say "Hey, we're right here where she says we are, dummy!" Of course, that would also presume that they had the situational awareness to figure out that the traffic crossing in front of them was the one ATC was calling, but lacked the common sense to actually alter course at all when you didn't reply.

[Crunk415balla]

See, thats the thing. If we DIDN'T hit the throttle when we did, I am convinced we may have hit, or came within 10 feet of eachother. We were going pretty slow since it was just a scenic flight, so full throttle gave us a very big kick in the ass to get us moving. It puzzles me why they made no effort to avoid hitting us, other than flashing the light. God forbid I hadn't seen them, we may have hit. Then again, maybe they noticed me looking at them and how fast we started shooting along, and figured "We're cutting it close, but we're good.". So I can't call them idiots or anything, as I don't know what went on in that cockpit. If anything, they may have been monitering the frequency thinking WE were idiots for missing "our" call. They had no way of knowing ATC was calling the wrong Cessna.

Either way, it could have been much worse, my CFI came within 20 feet at SQL on final weeks later and it made the paper, and I'm glad the rest of the flight was uneventful.

I could post my CFIs story if you guys would like to hear it. Very, VERY interesting. Perfect example how one person making one little mistake can lead to a chain of events which can very well lead to disaster.

[Digger]

I could post my CFIs story if you guys would like to hear it.

Please do. I'm always interested in this stuff.

[Gabriel]

I could post my CFIs story if you guys would like to hear it. Very, VERY interesting. Perfect example how one person making one little mistake can lead to a chain of events which can very well lead to disaster.
Please do.
[EDIT: damn, Digger, just a few seconds... Talk about the chances of almost simultaneous engines failures...]

[Digger]

No failure there. Just another example of great minds that think alike. :)


(Actually, I'd have been a few seconds earlier, but I took time to re-phrase the second sentence.)

[Crunk415balla]

Ok, I'll type it up in this post this evening.