A380 Separation Requirements Released

[G-DALE]

Hi folks,

The UK CAA has recently released the separation requirements for the Airbus A380. It's a pretty interesting read, but I think it will cause a few slight problems regarding holding times etc etc. As if it wasn't bad enough already!

Here are a couple of the requirements -

* 10 NM on final
* 15 NM in the terminal area
* 1500' vertical separation when holding

Have a look for yourself -

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ATS079.pdf

Cheers,

Dale

[indian airlines]

Any idea what the 757's separation requirements are? It'll give us something to compare the A380's separation requirements against.

[billiam]

Link is broken at the moment to the CAA pdf... in any case, most gov't aviation authorities use the following separation distances:
Leading Following Separation
aircraft aircraft distance
Heavy* Heavy 4 NM
Heavy Medium 5 NM
Heavy Light 6 NM
Medium Light 5 NM

Non-radar separations are 2-3minutes depending on the situation.

[DAL767-400ER]

So am I reading this correct, that with current standards (which can/will still change), the A380 would require twice the seperation of the 747? If yes, so much for the A380 easing traffic congestion.

[Simpleboy]

This is just a guide, final distances are to be confirmed later this year.

DAL767-400ER, It ownt really add to the congestion, my verison of teh sequence of events
A380 lands,
Lots of planes take off,
Then the plane 10NM behind the A380 lands.

[screaming_emu]

This is just a guide, final distances are to be confirmed later this year.

DAL767-400ER, It ownt really add to the congestion, my verison of teh sequence of events
A380 lands,
Lots of planes take off,
Then the plane 10NM behind the A380 lands.

But the way it works at a lot of airports is that there is a sort of rush hour. Say for example in Narita, most of the flights from the US come in during the early afternoon. Then all the flights to the US leave early evening. Not to say that it is like this all the time at every airport, but quite a lot of the time things are scheduled so that there's either a lot of planes taking off, or a lot of planes landing. Here is an example from when I flew into Minneapolis in a warrior, I got to wait in a line like this (not exact one, this was for the other runway)

<IMG SRC=http://www.jetphotos.net/user-uploads/msplineup.jpg>

and before someone calls that a shameless plug, I didn't take the picture. I was too busy trying to 1) not get lost 2) listen for when ATC calls me 3) not block anyone elses transmission 4) looking at how close behind that A320 they had us taxi going :uhoh:

[DAL767-400ER]

This is just a guide, final distances are to be confirmed later this year.

DAL767-400ER, It ownt really add to the congestion, my verison of teh sequence of events
A380 lands,
Lots of planes take off,
Then the plane 10NM behind the A380 lands.
Only problem is that at most airports, this won't work, especially during rush hour, as Joe mentioned. Take any of the major US hubs on the East coast, e.g. ATL (it will not see A380s for now, but is the best example): During rush hour, which at ATL lasts from roughly 6am to 10am and 4pm to 8pm, planes are departing every other minute, and planes are landing every 2-3 minutes. The traffic flow is usually so massive, that an A380 on finals would cause a traffic backup of some 3-4 planes, which then slowly ripples along the other arrivals waiting, and could cause more problems than e.g. 2 777s have caused. But anyway, the numbers are not yet finalised, so it is only speculation anyway.

[Crunk415balla]

I don't think this will cause too much of a disruption at US airports. There will be very few of these flights daily into major US airports, if they avoid rush hour, everything should be fine. Even if they do come in durring rush hour, at SFO for example, the A380 can come in on one of the paraells(can't spell it) and during that time, other traffic can be directed to the other runway, shouldn't be too complicated. I'm sure the situation will be diffrent at European airports which may have serveral A380s at once.

[screaming_emu]

Side note, I feel sorry for the poor bastard who is the last one to get off the 380 and has to stand in that customs line. Having been that person on a 747, it sucks....bad.

[Crunk415balla]

Side note, I feel sorry for the poor bastard who is the last one to get off the 380 and has to stand in that customs line. Having been that person on a 747, it sucks....bad.
:lol: Oh god that would be a bad way to start a vacation...or a worse way to end one.

[DAL767-400ER]

Even if they do come in durring rush hour, at SFO for example, the A380 can come in on one of the paraells(can't spell it) and during that time, other traffic can be directed to the other runway, shouldn't be too complicated.
Problem is that at SFO (LAX, or FRA as a Euro counterpart), the runways are too close to another, so there the seperation on the parallel runway would be the same as on the runway the A380 is landing on, as wake turbulence doesn't just spread out bak, but to the sides as well. Of course, you could still have a parallel landing, but can you imagine the tower calling the A380 with a comment like 'VS 380, stay behind the Embraer 120 on approach to 28L'? Doesn't sound too promising either.

[N9103M]

Looks like aviation has a new roadblock in the skies....15NM intrail spacing in the terminal area and 10NM on approach is horrendous! Controllers will love to hate that thing real quick....

[Crunk415balla]

Problem is that at SFO (LAX, or FRA as a Euro counterpart), the runways are too close to another, so there the seperation on the parallel runway would be the same as on the runway the A380 is landing on, as wake turbulence doesn't just spread out bak, but to the sides as well. Of course, you could still have a parallel landing, but can you imagine the tower calling the A380 with a comment like 'VS 380, stay behind the Embraer 120 on approach to 28L'? Doesn't sound too promising either.
Yes, I see what you're saying, I forgot wake turbulence comes from the sides too.:lol: But at least most airports will only be disrupted like this a few times a day, so the delays shouldn't be too bad.

[DAL767-400ER]

Looks like aviation has a new roadblock in the skies....15NM intrail spacing in the terminal area and 10NM on approach is horrendous! Controllers will love to hate that thing real quick....
Just for comparison, what would be the the spacing data for the 744 or the A346? Would be really interested to know.

[Leftseat86]

Just for comparison, what would be the the spacing data for the 744 or the A346? Would be really interested to know.


All I know is that everything coming into LAX gets 10nm spacing as soon as they start descending. Regardless of aircraft type, center controllers space to 10nm, and then hand them off to approach who will pack them in even tighter, down to the 4-6nm rules. 10nm on final is huge, that means that while the 380 is touching down, the next plane will still be a ways from the outer marker. I'm also wondering what the departure minimums will be. After a 380 takes off, how long till the runway can be used again?

This airplane is going to be the biggest headache since the 747 came into service, the difference being, when the 747 was introduced, it was back in the 70's and even US airports still had lots of room for expansion projects and improving infrastructure, something already required by the growing industry.

All you people saying it will be fine dont have a clue what you're talking about. Especially somewhere like LAX, where as soon as 4pm rolls around 744's start to stack up coming in from Asia, Europe and everywhere in between. Like someone said, ATC nightmare for sure. 15 miles terminal is bad, but 10nm of final is just nuts.

One more thing, re: A380 taxi routes at LAX, I dunno what they are gonna do but it is gonna be a damn mess.


And one last thing I just realised...if those rules stand, LHR is going to be really f**cked.

[DAL767-400ER]

Thanks for the insight on the procedures at LAX, it's appreciated :) . One more thing, re: A380 taxi routes at LAX, I dunno what they are gonna do but it is gonna be a damn mess.
Looking at how the Master Plan is proceeding, it seems LAWA doesn't know it either :-P . Though I'm already looking forward to see a QANTAS A380 taxi into the alley between TBIT and Terminal 4 and try to get into its gate.

[Leftseat86]

Thanks for the insight on the procedures at LAX, it's appreciated :) .
Looking at how the Master Plan is proceeding, it seems LAWA doesn't know it either :-P . Though I'm already looking forward to see a QANTAS A380 taxi into the alley between TBIT and Terminal 4 and try to get into its gate.


LOL well thats never gonna happen...all the 380's will park at remote on the north west corner of the airport. They can only use 25L/7R, so I'm assuming they'll taxi to and from the runway using AA->U/T/P->A...since I doubt there is enough clearance on both Charlie and Bravo to have a 380 taxi on either. Charlie is simply too close to most of the outer gates, and Bravo is too close to 25R/7L...even 744' wingtips already hang over the hold line significantly. There is talk that they will just use Bravo and 25R/7L will be closed for a few minutes when this happens.

Doesnt that sound STUPID :p



http://www.jetphotos.net/airports/klax/taxi.gif

[DAL767-400ER]

There is talk that they will just use Bravo and 25R/7L will be closed for a few minutes when this happens.

Doesnt that sound STUPID :p
Damn, LAX sure is desperate to get the A380 :lol: . But since the A380 will only use the TBIT satellites anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to upgrade 24L/6r for the A380? Sure would mean less constraints.

[Leftseat86]

Damn, LAX sure is desperate to get the A380 :lol: . But since the A380 will only use the TBIT satellites anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to upgrade 24L/6r for the A380? Sure would mean less constraints.

I dont know. At the moment they are starting work on a massive project to move 25L/7R 50ft south of where it is, to add a taxiway in between the runways, which is supposed to reduce runway incursions (although this is another stupid idea which has nothing to do with the 380, whole other issue).

I dont know how thats gonna work out in regards to all the south cargo facilities.