To All Members --> Please Read

[AmyB]

Good Afternoon All.


As I stated in another thread, I have not been as active on this site due to my moderating/administrative duties at AirDisaster.com. I lurk at JetPhoto’s daily and try to keep track of the active posts/topics…but largely, my attention has been turned elsewhere.

But events over the last few days have caused my eyes to be opened and let’s just say I’m paying a LOT more attention to what’s going on over here now.


After thoroughly reading quite a few threads, I must say that I am appalled at the lack of maturity, discretion and respect for others, and the large degree of blatant verbal attacks I have seen. In my opinion, this is unacceptable and must stop.


I am well aware of the issues at Airliners.net and their strict method of accepting photos…I’m aware of the controversy involved with this site vs. Airliners.net. But what I’m more aware of…and what is giving me concern for THIS site…is the less than desirable politics amongst the administration and moderators at Airliners.net, their methods of moderation well as the constant bickering on the board there amongst it’s members.

I have been a moderator at AirDisaster.com for 2 years now. And Chris and I have worked VERY hard to build that forum into a respectable, interesting board that promotes friendship and discussion.

And I know that is Chris’s hope for this site as well. I know that he wants to maintain and discuss the interesting subject of aviation photography…like Airliners.net. But that is the only thing, of which I am aware, even REMOTELY similar to Airliners.net that he wishes to integrate into this site. This site is HIS effort to provide people with a fair, amicable, interesting, area to discuss aviation photography and other matter relating to aviation.

So this place is for YOU…and whatever you put into it, you will take out of it. If you want to bring all the animosity and dissension from Airliners.net, then that is your choice. But understand that this subject matter is getting old. And it will only hurt this site in the long run...thus hurting yourSELVES in the process because *you* provide the content that you, and others, read. I think people are ready to move on and get behind JetPhotos.net not as a “knock off” of another site out there…but as a site that is new and innovative in it’s OWN right. A site that can hopefully provide another discussion ground for aviation enthusiasts…and like it’s sister site, create friendships and a familial environment amongst people who have similar interests.


I’m not seeing this right now. What I’m seeing is bickering. And there is a difference between bickering/nastiness….and simply disagreeing with another person’s opinions. Chris and I have always believed strongly in democratic, largely “hands off” moderating. We WANT people to have their say…we want them to expound on their opinion…even if the opinion does not match the majority and does not match our own opinion or political/national persuasion.

But with this freedom of speech and freedom of opinion comes responsibility: it is up to YOU to differentiate between attacking the issue instead of attacking the person. Attacking the person will NOT be tolerated. And that is what I have been seeing now that I’ve been perusing some of the active topics on the board.

People who know me know that I’m a very easy going, humorous, amicable person. I don’t want to be a heavy handed moderator…but nothing ticks me off more than seeing blatant attacks against a person and the apparent inability to use common sense and discretion when in debate with another person. Respect must ALWAYS be maintained or you can be rest assured that a moderator WILL step in.

I think this site is a great idea…with a great group of people. And it’s particularly interesting since it is a marriage of 2 different website participants: Airdisaster.com and Airliner.net. And I think that BOTH groups can add to the content of the site in different ways that are good.


So, with that said…I’ll be spending more time here now. So everyone please take this as a friendly notation of what I’m seeing…and understand that I will have to provide a more stringent warning should I see this pattern continue.

Very Best Regards,
Amy

[Robert]

I thought the people here with more mature actually. What am I missing??
Could you please point me to a few example threads of these problems?

I personally have not seen any personal attacks on anyone with the exception of one thing.
If you talking about the US VS Iraq thing, I havent seen any immaturity or name calling in that thread..
images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

[PolishAir42]

Amy good post.

I know that I have done my share in that...Even though I seriously didnt mean to, and I apologize.

Im seeing alot of people going back and forth fighting about anet or whatever. Simple, dont like it, dont go to it. No one is being forced to do anything.

[aerpix]

Amy, I agree 100%!

I did notice a few of the posts mentioned, and honestly, stopped reading them after being halfway through. Not to speak of typing any replies. It is not worth it.

It's quite simple: Treat anyone else exactly the way you want to be treated, any everybody is happy.

Regards,
Peter

[c72]

Amy,

I agree. Each site has it's "niche". Although some may have hard feelings or opinions towards the other site, I think it would be better to be on friendly terms. I personally can understand how some may feel, but I think it is best to not be so harsh where it is practically like declaring war.

Both sites can and will exist on the net and continue to serve the aviation photographers and community in general.

[Jorge]

Amy,

Thank you for taking the time to help this forum, I appreciate it more than you'll ever know.

I just wanted to say to the members, that Members make the forum, make it a good forum.

Jorge

[ADG]

Interesting post that incorporates exactly what I am complaining about. Snide and unfounded accusations against airliners.net.

Can't this site stand up on it's own merits without the constant attacks on airliners.net?

It's one thing coming from the users, but quite another coming from the moderation team.


VH-ADG

[FinalApproach]

"Amy good post.
I know that I have done my share in that...Even though I seriously didnt mean to, and I apologize.

Im seeing alot of people going back and forth fighting about anet or whatever. Simple, dont like it, dont go to it. No one is being forced to do anything."

Polishair42, I agree with what you said fully!
As I have been mentioning lately to the A.NET debaters, if you don't like the posts stop showing interest and they will dwindle away! I believe "negative" posts add some "fun" to the forum! Everyone likes a good debate! *I think their should be less personnal attacks* BUT seriously, what is wrong with a little good old fashion debate!
I like to debate and the A.NET topic it is a great debate that has been attracting many participants and post for days.

So if all that is wanted is nice "friendly" posts like "look at my nice picture", that receives maybe ONE or TWO replies like "yeah that is a nice picture", then so be it, but I think debates and challenges are more fun!

Remember it was "negativity"(which I prefer to call constructive critisizm) in the A.NET forum that introduced me to this "positive" page! So JP.NET, play your cards right and your page can still excel even with the debates.

Please remember, a debate is a debate, and right now A.NET is a great debate topic, as soon as the next debate comes I will be the first one there.

On the same note, the A.NET topic is not necessarily a "BASH" it can be looked at as a debate!

So understand I am not trying to bring this pages morals down, just participating in a debate!
images/smiles/icon_cool.gif

[AmyB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VH-ADG:
Interesting post that incorporates exactly what I am complaining about. Snide and unfounded accusations against airliners.net.

Can't this site stand up on it's own merits without the constant attacks on airliners.net?

It's one thing coming from the users, but quite another coming from the moderation team.


VH-ADG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


With all due respect, VH...the negative opinions of A.net were put out there to prove a point by me:

This point being that yes, there is an opinion that there are some controversial goings-on over at A.net (an opinion shared by me) but I do not think that this controversy should or will remain a pervasive topic on this forum.

In fact, with all due respect again, it seems as if you missed my point all together. I think this is a fabulous forum that *can* stand on it's own easily...and I think it will grow in due time. It is in it's infancy, and discussion of the differences, likenesses and controversy surrounding the Airliners.net issue was bound to be a topic.

And all I'm saying is that perhaps we are growing out of infancy and it's time to move onto newer and better topics (or controversy too...lots of controversy to be had, just of a different brand. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif).

But that does not change my opinion of A.net. That is my opinion, and I certainly have a right to state it. But I stated it in an effort to show that I identify with the frustrations and concerns of those members who DO have problems with Airliners.net...but, like you, I think it would be best if we all moved on.

So, if you consider that in poor taste coming from a moderator, then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But I stand by my statements, the spirit in which they were written, and my decision as a moderator/administrator of these forums to write them.

Regards,
Amy

[PolishAir42]

I dont really care if people debate on some aspects of sites as this or a.net its just when people start moaining about the site being "nazi" or that the site is evil because it rejects your pictures. Do people make mistakes and reject things they shouldnt? YES but for the most part if the sites goal is to serve professional photographers with high end equipment then people should know better than to upload images lower than the standards and the mope about it.

Personally (And i think the majority here) wants this site to evolve into a bigger community of everyone put together and not make a group of people left inferior or left out.

If im wrong than i take back what i said...

[ADG]

Amy,

I didn't miss your point, I just didn't accept it. I think you're right when you say this site can stand up on it's own. That's my point too. It doesn't need people whinging about airliners.net, because to me sitting over here under my airconditioner in Australia it makes it look like nothing more than "the site to use when you can't use airliners.net". I don't want to see the site as that, and i'm sure you dont'.

Your opinion of the running of airliners.net is just that, an opinion. You have a multitude of opportunities to take that up with the site administrators if you so choose, I can't see any benefit of posting your opinions here and having a sly "dig" at the administrators in a forum that they dont' necessarily partake in.

And in reality, i'm far more interested in how you got over your fear of flying than what you think of the airliners.net moderators. If I want to read about airliners.net i'll go over there.

So now that's said, how did you get over the fear of flying?


VH-ADG

[mirrodie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote But what I’m more aware of…and what is giving me concern for THIS site…is the less than desirable politics amongst the administration and moderators at Airliners.net, their methods of moderation well as the constant bickering on the board there amongst it’s members

In your quote, Amy, I do not understand. You stated your concern for THIS site yet went on to talk about airliners.net. And I was not sure what you meant by politics.

Otherwise, not only do I agree with you, I also agree with the litany of other opinions here too.

As one of the moderators on the "a.net", I do realize that some people even see ME as the problem. Yet, even I come here to get away from the nonsense.

"If you want to bring all the animosity and dissension from Airliners.net, then that is your choice" See, though, here's the problem. Its not animosity and dissention, its the users. I'll email you.

[cicadajet]

I think its going to be *very* refreshing to have Amy and Chris moderate the boards here. nod.gif clap.gif

The first time I see a post that reads: "What do you expect from American Trash?" and it is retained in the interests of "keeping the conversation intact", I'll know I was wrong.

[ADG]

so you're suggesting that it will be refreshing to see conversation stiffled to appease a few egos?

Interesting.

VH-ADG

[AmyB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mirrodie:
In your quote, Amy, I do not understand. You stated your concern for THIS site yet went on to talk about airliners.net. And I was not sure what you meant by politics.

Otherwise, not only do I agree with you, I also agree with the litany of other opinions here too.

As one of the moderators on the "a.net", I do realize that some people even see ME as the problem. Yet, even I come here to get away from the nonsense.

"If you want to bring all the animosity and dissension from Airliners.net, then that is your choice" See, though, here's the problem. Its not animosity and dissention, its the users. I'll email you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your response...

The first paragraph in which you quoted me: what I meant by that is that I did not want this site to mirror that of a.net in the way of bickering and dissention. That is my main concern for this forum.


I am a little confused by what you said about "It's not animosity and dissention, it's the users". So a private correspondance would be welcomed to converser further about it. And, actually, I'm away from all my e-mail addresses so it would be great if you could PM me instead.


And VH...let me address your question about my fear of flying before you start getting a bit prickly about my touching on the topic of a.net again. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Ultimately, what I did was I participated in virtual reality therapy. It combined anxiety reduction therapy/techniques with VR exposure. I wore the VR mask which simulated the look of an airliner cabin. And the headset also had all the sounds of a plane too: Flight Attendant announcements, the whine of taxiing, the take off, etc, etc. And the seat I was in simulated the rumbling effect.

The idea was to keep exposing me to the feared object, thus desensitizing me to it...and whatever fear was left could be controlled by the anti-anxiety techniques (breathing, "stop-thoughts", etc, etc).

It worked. And also, I took it upon myself to learn as much as possible about the industry itself. Knowledge is power with the fear of flying..because much of the fear is about control of one's surroundings anyway. So I've been very fortunate: through my involvement with AirDisaster.com, I've been able to tour the Delta hangar in Atlanta...and copilot a 767 simulator...as well as skydive from 14,000 feet. Lots of friends in the industry now too...so I'm able to direct other fearful flyers to places where they can receive information, help and therapy now too.

images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

That's it in a nutshell. I think that getting over the fear of flying is half about learning to understand the love and passion for aviation. If I can give people a little peice of the thrill and love that people put into the industry...then I think I can put them a lot further down the path to finding their own road of recovery.


Regards,
Amy

[shamrock145hvy]

Amy

If a bit of common sense is used when addressing subjects, I think issues (some we can do little about) could be discussed more adult-like. And, hold your breathe, even possibly (sp?) produce interesting subject matter for other forums. idea.gif

I know opinions are like (you know!), but that's what makes a great aviation forum section.

Lets face it, if this site goes belly-up, there are not to many choices for use of media equal to, or better than this site. I hope everything works out. Cheers everyone!

shamrock145hvy

clap.gif laff.gif clap.gif nod.gif clap.gif

<FONT COLOR="black" SIZE="1">[ December 25, 2002 12:36 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by shamrock145hvy ]</font>

[cicadajet]

<< I think its going to be *very* refreshing to have Amy and Chris moderate the boards here.
The first time I see a post that reads: "What do you expect from American Trash?" and it is retained in the interests of "keeping the conversation intact", I'll know I was wrong. >>

CICADJET

<< so you're suggesting that it will be refreshing to see conversation stiffled to appease a few egos?
Interesting. >>

VH-ADG

********************************************************

Yes. I am suggesting no one should ever be offended...certainly not you or me anyway images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Seriously, I hope not. That would be boring...and certainly not interesting...

I haven't really seen as the stated reason for deleting of posts being given as "for the reason of stifling conversation" (anywhere) or "suggest stifling of conversation" buttons next to each post (elsewhere).....[don't think I've been a big used of it either..]
although I have seen posts/threads deleted or locked elsewhere for whatever the reasons may be (flame-bait?)... so it depends on the definition of "conversation" doesn't it? Or, you could be right..it all comes down to everyone's ego. In no small measure the ego of whoever gets to make the call must enter into that equation. And, theres fewer of those egos to appease, than users, isn't there ?

I'm only suggesting its good to have an alternative. (and that perhaps I'll appreciate it... we'll see..I'm not really going to hold my breath. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif )

If the goal is to reduce needless bickering..such posts might need rephrasing...and perhaps there is reason for a different editorial direction here. It seemed to be implied in one of Chris' posts. Thats one way this site might not be a "carbon copy", right? Would I be amiss if I suggested the other site might be a bit Eurocentric? Its not an insult -- and I wouldn't mean to suggest it in a way as to sum anyone/entity as nothing more than that... And, its only brought up in the guess it has something to do with Amy's reference to disagreeing with "politics" - (maybe she meant something else entirely, I can't be sure....)

The statement referenced originally does seem withoout merit...what would one expect of "trash" anywhere? Its content and context. We could just as well have endless "fake" accusation threads run through the photography forum here...and if they were retained for the purposes of "keeping the conversation intact", I'm sure there would be an attempt at "stifling the conversation".
I realize, of course, everyone pays great lip service to freedom of speech...Maybe thats exactly the way it will be...can't tell yet.

No big worries either way. ...I'm thinking there will be a difference...and a choice..including choosing *both* choices. And - choosing neither (Non-av or Off-topic.. -probably my choice... laff.gif )

Yes, it would be silly if members could not criticize any "sacred cows"...(ie: if no one could express criticism of the USA...).

Anyway...I realize the topic is played out.
..Happy holidays to all and a safe New Year!!!

tom

[ADG]

What amuses me about the complainants is that i've had posts deleted off airliners.net for no reason other than it set the ferals off. No rules were broken, but the vocal minority went off like the schoolyard bullies they are. You don't see me starting WW2 over it.


Amy,

VR? simulators? Is that a course that is run somewhere?


VH-ADG

[cicadajet]

<< What amuses me about the complainants is that i've had posts deleted off airliners.net for no reason other than it set the ferals off. No rules were broken, but the vocal minority went off like the schoolyard bullies they are.>>

I had no idea honestly... Can't fault you/anyone for following the rules.. those are baddeletes maybe.. nonono2.gif

<< You don't see me starting WW2 over it. >>

no. me either. I don't start those/these threads either.. I'm going to do my part and bow out...
I bet you could start WW3 though if you wanted to ... uhoh.gif images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<< Amy,

VR? simulators? Is that a course that is run somewhere?>>

I dread flying myself sometimes...

[Boeing4ever]

I agree with you 100% AmyB. However, I do have a slight fear that JP.net will become a refugee camp for a.net members seeking to take their fights elsewhere. I have to say JP.net is extremely friendly in contrast to a.net.

[Greg]

Controversy breeds thought, thought breeds new ideas, new ideas breed concepts and concepts breed change. Without constructive contoversy nothing happens it random "Oh, I'm bored lets say something stupid on the forums an see if anyone cares" The only real controversy these days is: Iraq vs. U.S. , U.S. vs. U.N., U.S. vs. the World and Jp.net vs. A.net. These debates can be eye-opening if conducted well. To have that happen the moderators need to help, Polishair does his fair share of leading ideas to debate and preventing stupidity and close mindedness. It is true that profanity breeds hate and hate kills but sometimes opinions take hold of one's body and fill them with blind rage.

[Katamarino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Greg:
Controversy breeds thought, thought breeds new ideas, new ideas breed concepts and concepts breed change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But change breeds fear, and fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the Daaark Side...

[Aeronautics]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Katamarino:
But change breeds fear, and fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the Daaark Side...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watching too much television?

images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Katamarino]

Television at uni watch i not...

[bfpires]

null"However, I do have a slight fear that JP.net will become a refugee camp for a.net members seeking to take their fights elsewhere. I have to say JP.net is extremely friendly in contrast to a.net."

Lets hope not.

Well, overall, I have no doubt that jp.net is a much much more friendly than a.net. For all I´ve read since I started posting on jp.net, it seems there is a open-minded share-willing spirit amoung members here, and I really hope this site can go on growing this way. That´s what make it special. clap.gif

This site already stands high for itself, for the great stuff on it, and most important for the TRUE FORUMS (yes, you don´t need be on any first, second or third class member crap thing, and pay for sharing your own ideas!).

Thanks,

[Greg]

On a rainy friday I was going throught he old posts and found this. Back when I was a newly minted forumite and half these people were still here. I found it to be completely relevant to the forum now. As the title said this hould be required reading for veryone so that Chris can merely keep us inline and not have to use his authoritative powers to put us back in line. For the sake of prosperity this post is back.

[B777-400]

...I was wondering why this thread was so old until I read the last post

[aerpix]

Thanks for bringing this up, Greg, or was it pure co-incidende that it was you who brought it up again? When Amy typed her original post it was not really a problem, save a few isolated posts. I still think it is not a problem, as those who were a problem were banned for some days, and after their return became much more civilized, right Greg?

I was personally insulted quite a few times for my oppinion, yet I have no intention to stop speaking freely here. I think I can handle personal insults, and personally find it a pity when members are banned for this. It takes away the chance to reply to insults in a civilized way and show the insulters that they are possibly wrong.

And I also got a threat of a ban, but not for insults, rather for freely speaking out my oppinion. This would be totally unacceptable, however, as we all have the right of free speech.

So my best guess would be that those who arrive at the end of their arguments and are at the edge of becoming insulting would just switch off their computer and leave it as it is. With all others here, however, I look forward to continuing and interesting debates.

JP.Net forum is a great place to discuss, so let's keep it as that.

Regards,
Peter

[indian airlines]

I think everyone has insulted someone at some time or the other, but its never really been a very big thing, for me atleast. :roll:

[aerpix]

Neither for me. I do not give a d.. s.. on being called an 'asshole', as the caller probably identifies himself with this :D :D .

Regards,
Peter

[Richard]

I agree. Well seeing that I am not an a.net member, rest assured I won't be taking some of that animosity into these forums and that I don't see myself as one who makes offensive comments on fellow posters.

But I must say, I have often been insulted by some of the statements made by others previously on this forum. I just hope that from now on, things can be discussed peacefully.

[B777-400]

I agree, but if everyone seemingly agrees, why is this an issue then?

[indian airlines]

Everyone, just forget about it.

[aerpix]

Amen :) .

Regards,
Peter